Scumback S75-PVC and the Reissue Celestion Blue alnico

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by ZackyDog, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

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    Ahh...the Bluesbreaker reissue.

    Yep, I remember the earlier versions of this amp using 6L6s, Greenback ceramics, and a smaller cabinet. I don't know how they were calling it a reissue when they weren't using KT66s, Blue/Silver/Greenback alnicos and a bigger cabinet. Sorry, I'm not sure: I guess the new cabinet can accommodate those big tubes. I like the Beano tones, and I saw one of the earlier reissues years ago, but I never played through one.

    In the newer VOXes, I actually prefer a JJECC803s, as opposed to the vintage Telefunken, Ei (Yugo; used Telefunken tooling) and Mullard 12AX7s. I also used Brimar and the Telefunken-like Ei EL84s, but prefer the reliability and durability (they can withstand the high output voltages of the VOX) of JJEL84s. The exception being the NOS GE EL84s that were stock with my AC30TBX; they were great.

    Interesting info re: Orange. Marshall apparently didn't keep such good records over the decades.
    The only Bluesbreaker reissue that seemed accurate was the 50th Anniversary Model. They finally got the (alnico) speakers right, but with it being hand-wired in the UK, the price was exorbitant.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
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  2. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I was referring to two events, the first being the origin of the Blue (late '50s early '60s) and the second being the reissuing of the Blue in the '90s.

    Celestion made the alnico 12 we now know as the Blue in the late '50s, all painted hammertone grey.
    Vox contracted with Celestion to paint them blue for the AC15 and AC30.
    Vox also IIRC requested magnet covers.

    When Marshall years later went to Celestion for those same speakers to put in the JTM45, Vox claimed ownership of the blue painted Celestion with the magnet cover and Vox label.

    So Celestion sold Marshall the standard issue alnico speakers in the regular hammertone grey with no magnet cover.

    The blue painted Celestions with the cover and the Vox label became known as the "Vox Blue"
    They were not known as the Celestion Blue back then.

    Marshall just called the 15w alnico's "Celestion speakers".
    No Celestion Blue was ever installed by Marshall in those early amps that used the alnico Celestion.

    Production of the alnico ceased (mid/ late '60s?) as ceramics became the better power handling product, and we got no more until IIRC the 1990s when Celestion saw that we wanted those low power handling speakers and were willing to pay big money.
    So Celestion spent a few years trying to make a new cone that sounded like the old cone, and finally released the reissue Celestion Blue.

    My point is that there was never a "Celestion Blue" before Celestion reissued the "Vox Blue" as the "Celestion Blue",due largely to interest in Vox AC30 sound.
    The Vox Blue was AKA the "Vox Bulldog", but there was debate and annoyance over calling them "bulldogs", because Vox never callen=d them bulldogs, so Vox Blue was accepted.

    Marshall users still wanted Greenbacks, not 15w alnico speakers.
    Really hardly anyone even knew Marshall had used alnico Celestions for a short time before going to the Greenback G12M20.

    Note that there was never an alnico Greenback!

    Also it's maybe worth noting that "Pulsonic" cones used to be made by Pulsonic but what we have now are pulsonic style cones.
    All the new reissue speaker soft parts had to be newly engineered because Celestion never made them and the maker was long gone along with all records of the process.

    What first put Scumback speakers on the map was their research into trying to figure out and recreate the paper pulp formula in those old pulsonic cones.
    Celestion engineers were attempting the same thing by=ut a little earlier.
    The internet gear nutz chat community debated which cones sounded most correct, including of course being split over whether correct meant sounds like an old one or sounds like the old ones did when they were new.
    Obviously nobody has made the actual same pulsonic cones ever again, and we are still debating which fake sounds the most real...

    I think I covered what I was trying to say?
     
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  3. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Regarding the Chinese Vox Celestion Blue, I followed the as good/ not as good debate with mild interest and it seemed like only a few prolific complainers thought they sucked.
    Kind of like all the internet complaints that the basic vintage Tele has ice pick tone.

    Whether or not those Chinese Blues sounded bad, Celestion couldn't put the original cones in them because all they had were reissue cones. But the internet community on a rampage can be calmed down with a choice spin.

    As all this was happening in the manufacturing world, the speaker reconing world still had a small supply or actual vintage Mueller and Pulsonic cones.
    AFAIK comparisons between original and reissue cones determined that they did not sound the same.
    But again, when gear heads pick stuff apart like this, it's hard to tell what actual facts come of it.

    One thing that's pretty solid fact is that vintage speakers sound is in the cone assembly, and virtually every sought after vintage speaker has run the market out of original cone kits.

    The alnico EV SRO has not gotten a satisfactory cone kit since they ran out.
    The Altec 417 new issue cone kits only satisfy some, not all customers, though Great Plains Audio claims to make and install original parts.
    AFAIK there is not a single reissue cone kit made that all users agree nails the originals for making a speaker sound the same as original.

    This sucks, I have a bunch of Altecs and a bunch of Celestions that need recones.
    I did manage to get an SRO alnico with one of the last original cone kits EV had supplied but nobody can seem to duplicate any more.
    Great great speakers those SRO.

    That's another funny name mixup, where EV changed to an ceramic magnet and still called the new speaker the old name: SRO.
    Later they left the speaker the same but changed the name to EVM 12L (or EVM15L).
    You can still get the EVM12L cones and they fit the SRO but they do not sound the same.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
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  4. alnico357

    alnico357 Tele-Holic

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    I have a special edition Electric Blue DRRI purchased in 2010. It came with an Alnico Blue which I really like. It may be a low wattage speaker, but it has something like 102 dB sensitivity. The amp can get louder before running out of power and distorting.

    I like to have a clean gigging volume first and foremost and this amp does it for me. My 1966 DR could not stay clean at gigging volume.
     
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  5. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    If you look at the response curve you can see why depending on the guitar Blues might appear louder. Especially close by.

    Celestion Blue

    images (1).png

    Celestion Gold.

    images (3).png

    You can see although the Cel gold has if anything a higher peak, it doesn't hold up so well between 500-1000 hz or above 1khz. More holes in the curve.

    Depending on where you were standing when auditioning, the Blue might be perceptibly louder. I'd say 30 feet away they'd be a wash.

    Vox at Voxfest used to provide a production PCB UK AC30 to go back to back with classic amps fettled by names in the Fab Fake community with someone doing John and George on Gretsches, Rics, Casinos in a double blind test. Even the guitarist didn't know - someone behind a partition switched leads.

    Often the whole room picked the new production item with stock brand new OEM tubes and unbroken-in speakers as the best-sounding amp. No doubt Vox ensured it was a good example - but it wasn't tweaked.

    Most people couldn't pick new from vintage although most everyone could pick non-topboost from topboost.

    A very helpful guy from Eminence gave me a reason most modern versions of speakers have higher power handling than they did - apart from the db war of quoting peak instead of RMS.

    Better glues for cones, surrounds and spiders.

    In the old days they used hide glue. Now they have epoxy or superglue that is far superior and doesn't dry out or crack. So cones can still split from overextension and voicecoils burn up, but your surround and spider hang together better.

    That's one reason the new GB is 25 watts vs the old at 20. Voicecoils are the same spec, ditto formers and gap. FWIW my new UK one in my MiniJube sounds like a Greenback. Compared to old? Don't know. But it sounds good.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
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  6. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

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    I remember reading that in another forum. I thought that the AC15/30 TB/TBX series were/are great amps, though I wish that my '93 TBX came stock with better preamp tubes. The stock, NOS GE EL84s were great.

    (I've played through vintage AC30s, one of which was a '62 w/retrofitted top boost. A resissue AC30TBX with broken in Celestion Blues, sounds comparable to me)
     
  7. Buckaroo

    Buckaroo Tele-Meister

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    I have a few various Fender Deluxe Reverb Amps. Vintage and newer models. I like the Celestion G12M 20 Watt (UK made) and the new Celestion Ruby in those amps. I have never had a G12M fail in those amps. And sometimes I really push it. A Celestion fan for sure. I think the wattage on their speakers is rated fairly conservatively....just my opinion.
     
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  8. zombiwoof

    zombiwoof Tele-Afflicted

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    The Celestion G12M-20 Reissue Greenback actually is rated at 25 watts, according to a Celestion rep that used to post on the forums a while back. That may explain why it works in a 20 watt amp.
    Al
     
  9. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

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    It would be nice to audition these new, VOX/Celestion Silver alnicos, that are stock with the VOX AC15/HW60 and VOX AC30/HW60.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Buckaroo

    Buckaroo Tele-Meister

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    Zombiwoof,

    Here is the data from Celstion's site. My Heritage ( UK made) Greenback G12M is listed as 20 W and has that value written on the speaker:

    https://celestion.com/product/24/heritage_series_g12m/

    The 25 W G12M is the classic series is made elsewhere (China ?) and is here:

    https://celestion.com/product/16/g12m_greenback/

    IMO, the both speakers are likely rated a bit conservatively by Celestion.

    Buck
     
  11. zombiwoof

    zombiwoof Tele-Afflicted

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    I know what it states on the 20 watt Greenback, but a Celestion rep who used to post a lot on the forums stated that although it says 20 watts, it is really a 25 watt speaker, due to the parts used on it. Right from the horse's mouth.
    By the way, the regular Greenback 25 watter is no longer made in China. It, and some other Celestions that were made in China for the last years are now made in the UK. This happened in the last year or so.
    Al
     
  12. Buckaroo

    Buckaroo Tele-Meister

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    Glad to hear the 25 watt model is back in the UK.
     
  13. deus56

    deus56 TDPRI Member

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    Here are some pics of the speakers you mention. I acquired them for use with my
    '64 JTM45 Replica.
    1966 T1220 pair, have another one from 1967
    1966 T1088 pair, also have a quad from 1968 (they have doping)
    1967 T1281 pair, these are unusual as they have doping on both sides of the cone and
    the earlier bass code SP 444.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  14. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Holy cash flow those are some museum piece speakers!
     
  15. uriah1

    uriah1 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I thought this was about the scumback new
    version..for the op
     
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  16. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

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    Thanks but I started comparing the Scumback S75-PVC to the 60s Celestion 20/25 watt alnicos. :)
     
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  17. uriah1

    uriah1 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    The new ruby looks nice too
    and while I am on an alnico roll
    the fanes and avatars.
     
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  18. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

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    The Avatar A25 alnico sounded great in a clip I heard; similar to a Celestion Blue and significantly ($179) cheaper.

    upload_2019-8-15_11-40-12.jpeg
     
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  19. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    ....Remember though, there were no '60s Celestion 20/25 watt alnicos...

    The alnico was a 15w, then the 20w was a "M" medium ceramic magnet speaker, the first 25w was an "H" heavy ceramic magnet speaker, and a little later those M and H ceramics became 25w and 30w with the "improved" VC.

    I find it funny that most refer to "the Greenback" when there were so many different "Greenbacks".
    Reissue Marshall cabs first and most often got the G12M25 Greenback, which was also the most common greenback in vintage Marshalls.

    I've had a bunch of vintage Celestions and still have a few but not many of the more the rare versions @deus56 pictured above.

    We also got the creamback and blackback not-greenbacks in the mid '70s, which are the same as Greenbacks but with different color backs and kapton VCs which gave them a different sound, not as good a sound to most. Many call those Greenbacks.
     
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  20. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Mmmmm, alnico!

    Still need to find a Fane alnico and the new Jensen Blackbird alnico is the only new Jensen I lust after.
    The Blackbird is supposed to sound like the old EV SRO alnico, but it handles 100w where the SRO handles 70, and it it smaller and lighter where the SRO weighs maybe 20lbs and stick out the back of most cabs.

    The reconed 59 Jensen P12N I have actually sounds a lot like the Celestion Blue, with the sparkling detailed highs that have me turning down the treble. But it has more bass, and feels less tight. What recone it got would define much of the sound.

    Really want to get some of my Altec 417 alnicos reconed too, all ended up blown or scratchy.

    Interesting that more new alnico copies and new desigh=ns keep hitting the market despite the cost and supply of alnico.
    I wonder if the new Avatar is a Celestion build?
     
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