Scumback S75-PVC and the Reissue Celestion Blue alnico

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by ZackyDog, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Location:
    PNW
    [​IMG]

    According to some at another gear forum, this speaker does a better job of recreating the sound of the original Celestion Blue alnico, than the reissue Celestion Blue alnico. More information is here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  2. uriah1

    uriah1 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    19,998
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Around
    Interesting. will check out.........

    To me, the blue is probably the best speaker on the planet. Too bad
    usually need low watt amps to avoid destruction.

    I have cream and gold alnicos...for higher applications,
    nice..but, still not a blue..never tried their new ruby

    tks
     
    ZackyDog likes this.
  3. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Location:
    PNW
    I have been using the Blues since they were reissued in '93. I also had a 10" Gold which I also liked. I've read some great things about the Cream, and I'm sure that the Ruby is just as great as the others.

    The Blue is conservatively rated at 15 watts, but can actually handle about 22 watts.

    I'm always curious about companies who say that they can make an even better speaker than the original equipment manufacturer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
    telemnemonics and uriah1 like this.
  4. deytookerjaabs

    deytookerjaabs Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,856
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2015
    Location:
    Nashville
    I've had both, Scumback is warm and very inefficient, breaks up early, and Scumbacks will blow easy if you match watts. I blew a 65W Scumback gigging with no pedals & the volume on "5" on a Germino JTM45....so..!!??


    The Scumback sound is great. Yet, I had a Scumnico in my Princeton Reverb and it broke up so early forget being around a drummer, made it a studio amp!

    For me, I'm going Scumback in 2x12 or 4x12 format where I want to tame volume & maybe add punch/warmth. Ideally you'd want the high watt Scumnico pair for an AC-30 because it puts out more than a regular ole 30 watt amp. Moreover, the best place for regular ceramic Scumbacks is under an aggressive sounding Marshall lead circuit where the Scumback tames it in all the right ways. For little combo amps??? Ehhh...it just hasn't worked out for me. I still have a pair of Scumnicos too, waiting for the right rig.


    The Celestion has more cut to it, a bit more open sounding, much more robust, and will wake up the little amps. It also needs to be played & sounds better when in a group setting whereas it can be a bit bright at home in a noodle session.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
    Twang and ZackyDog like this.
  5. milocj

    milocj Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    3,517
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Location:
    Michigan
    The newish Fane Alnico is also a great "Blue" type speaker with some additional power handling on tap. I have a Blue in one Goodsell and the Fane in another. They both sound great and neither has trouble with the 15-18 watts plus they're both about the same efficiency to my ears.
     
    ZackyDog likes this.
  6. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Location:
    PNW
    Speaking of blowing speakers:

    It makes me wonder how The Beatles AC50 speaker cabinets, equipped with 2 Celestion Blues (that can handle the load of an AC30; ~30 watts), didn't blow? They must have had to keep the volume at the half-way mark, or thereabouts?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. deytookerjaabs

    deytookerjaabs Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,856
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2015
    Location:
    Nashville


    Well, I know that if you crank the hell out of an old AC30 you get more grind than the Beatles usually had on tap. In fact, that seems to be a thing these days...crank that vintage amp harder than ya ever heard on the live & studio stuff. I know for the Marshalls if it were a half stack some guys used the bass cab & usually you were running a full stack.


    I do wonder if the Scumbacks aren't more sensitive than the real thing? The guy who sold me my Germino I used to have also had a blown 65W Scumback! Same story, no pedals, amp not cranked. I was too stupid to heed his advice.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
    ZackyDog likes this.
  8. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Location:
    PNW
    I have read that they sound great, but are more sensitive. Scumback says on their website: If sent too much power, they will spark or catch on fire.
     
  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,144
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    It's possible those AC50 amps put out about the same total distorted power as the AC30.
    The ratings being at clipping, it seems like some amps get a whole lot louder as the volume gets turned above the clipping point, where other amps really don't get a whole lot louder.
    Of course the AC30 must put out easily 50w at full distorted volume, where the speakers are rated based on the old days amp (at clipping, AKA clean) wattage rating, not so much on the old days total distorted output rating.

    I have an original silver alnico Celestion from '65, a RI Blue, a bunch of Golds, a P12N (rated at what, 18w?), an alnico EV SRO, a bunch of alnico Altecs, and they all seem to handle more than rated power but gradually wear out from running hot and smoking the paper VC till it gets brittle or just isn't round any more.

    If the speakers are not over heated or not hot for too long, they can last for years under pretty heavy use.
    My old gray Blue finally gave it up after use in a small amp for maybe five years.
    Certainly didn't sound like a new Blue, being 50 years older.

    Could be the scumback sounds closer to a worn out Blue where the Blue sounds like a new Blue sounded.
     
    Twelvefrets and ZackyDog like this.
  10. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,144
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    It's funny, Scumback states that the "Blue alnico was used in the Marshall BluesBreaker (sic) combos".

    Those Marshall combo amps and all the Marshalls that used the Celestion alnico did not use the Celestion Blue!
    Vox insisted the blue color they requested Celestion paint their Vox labeled speakers was a Vox brand color, and Marshall couldn't use it.
    So Celestion painted them silver for Marshall.
    AKA "Silver Alnico"
    Seems silver was the stock Celestion color and some voxa cabs got silver alnico Celestions, but Marshall never got blues.
    Marshall also typically didn't get the magnet covers, but they put pretty Marshall stickers on the magnets.

    I recall lots of debate on a Marshall copy amp forum about which Scumbacks nailed the Greenback sound.
    What amp builder was that?
    Great builder.
    It's late...
     
  11. uriah1

    uriah1 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    19,998
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Around
    I would think those pre-rola new alnicos sound nothing like
    their other scumbacks and scumincos. THey have a few lines.
     
    ZackyDog likes this.
  12. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Location:
    PNW
    Close enough, right? I'll bet Clapton's Bluesbreaker used alnico speakers practically identical to the Blue, sans the blue paint and basket.

    Here is the alnico Celestion G12M (20 watts, left) and GG12H (25 watts, right)

    [​IMG]

    More info here.

    If you retrofitted a set of reissue Blues in the latest (not 50th Anniversary model which already has Marshall/Celestion alnicos)) Bluesbreaker model, you would nail the 'Beano' LP sound (with an early 60s Les Paul, of course).
     
  13. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,144
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    It also seems odd that they give both versions a 98db efficiency number.
    The Celestion Blue IIRC is rated the same as the Gold but to my ear it's a little louder if anything, maybe even louder than a Red Fang which has a higher number than a Gold.
    Not sure why Scumback would build it to be less efficient, except to try to get an album sound form it as opposed to an accurate recreation of the original Celestion alnico, which was super efficient.

    Maybe it would be good for an AC30 that's too loud, but I wouldn't really want to lose 4db of efficiency in a 15w amp, in pursuit of some old Clapton tone on a really dull yet popular record.

    Sorry!
    Never got the popularity of Claptons Bluesbreakers playing, aside from the historic interest.

    I also think it's foolish to assign a speaker sound to an old record.
    The Celestion Blue made all sorts of different sounds, which is what I love about them.
    But here again, marketing sells product.
     
  14. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Location:
    PNW
    I think that the Celestion Blue is at least a good reference point. As you know, the speakers are a big part of the sound. And there seems to be a lot of confusion about the early/50s/60s Celestion alnicos names and power capability(?)
     
    telemnemonics likes this.
  15. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,144
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Those speakers pictured are the ceramic Celestions that replaced the alnico.
    I have a bunch of pre Rola Celestions and sold many more.
    Still have a nice good running G12M20 like the one on the right, those are great for the thickest (dare I say Beano?) tones, all mids and low mids with soft highs and not much bass compared to the low mids.
    Very rare too, not many were made before they upped the wattage of the M magnet to 25 and then most of those were blown and replaced with 25 or 30 watters, or got reconed with the 25w cone or even a modern cone.
    I bought one of the Heritage G12M20 speakers and it nails that thickest of the greenbacks tone well.
    Not a versatile speaker though.
    Seems EVH preferred them and those reissue speakers went in EVH cabs, but not labeled Heritage.
    Good deals there if anyone wants that thich low mids fatness.
    Total opposite of the Blue.
    Seems like people used to argue that Claptons Marshall might have had those thick toned G12M20 speakers rather than the silver alnico Celestions. Funny given the huge difference in tone between those two possibilities.
    But his sound on that album had an awful lot to do with the amps cranked and maybe the guitar as well, not just the speakers.
    History is funny stuff!
     
  16. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,144
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    True about a lot of confusion.
    AFAIK by the time Vox and Marshall started using the alnico Celestions, there were exactly one version of that speaker, but it had many names including "Vox Bulldog", "Vox Blue", "Vox silver Bulldog" "Celestion Blue", "Celestion alnico", "Celestion silver alnico", and of course when they first went into Marshalls they were the only Celestion guitar speaker so they were simply called "Celestion".
    Vox probably also called them just "Celestion" rather than "Celestion Blue" or "Vox Blue".
    It was the vintage collector chat community that came up with all the extra names.

    All that confusion is largely marketers reissuing history for their intended profit!

    Now that Celestion calls that reissue speaker the "Celestion Blue" which is a Vox version, not what Celestion sold to the open market, we have some reference point as to what to call the current production Celestion alnico speaker line that comes in all sorts of pretty colors.

    I'd buy a Celestion Marshall silver version too, with no cover, silver paint, and a nice Marshall label.
    Seems goofy to put Vox special order speakers in a Marshall combo, but marketing leads the market!

    It was interesting when the collector market started paying $500 a pair for vintage Vox label Blue alnicos while Celestion was focused on making higher power handling speakers.
    Celestion took notice of the vintage market and started working on a reissue fo the Blue.
    But since the cones were not made by Celestion, and the factory that made the original cones was gi=one and worse still had burned down so there was not documentation of how they made those cones, Celestion took years of R&D trying to recreate the low power handling reissue alnico.
    All because the vintage market was paying $250 each for used ones!
    And what did Celestion price them at when they finally nailed the recipe and brought them to market?
    $250 each!
     
    elihu and ZackyDog like this.
  17. David Barnett

    David Barnett Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    63
    Posts:
    11,053
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Location:
    The Far-Flung Isles of Langerhans
    Metropoulos?
     
    telemnemonics likes this.
  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,144
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Right that's the name!
    Great amp builder and also host a cool forum discussing the minutia of what makes or made the vintage original Plexi Marshalls so great.
    I've owned a lot of vintage Plexi and early metal panel Marshalls and can get into the minutia of where mustard caps really matter and what pulp formula makes the best speaker cones.
    But forums are by nature a bunch of obsessive fanboi types losing their cookies over paper pulp...

    I do value reverse engineering parts that were essential to certain great vintage guitar gear.
    Just gets funny sometimes.

    https://wordpress.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/hammerforum-com/
     
  19. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,144
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    As far as nailing the Beano sound, I'd assume you would need a pair of vintage Genalex KT66.
    Hard to find and expensive, though possibly getting easier to find as the market seems to be losing interest in vintage tubes, seemingly because forums rag on the idea that vintage tubes are better than new production.
    Not keeping up on how close the current production recreations of that power tube sound to originals, but in that amp and how it was used on those recordings, the power tubes are possibly as big a part of the sound as the speakers.

    I also assume Marshall made the newer Bluesbreaker combo deep enough for those huge tubes?
    The first reissue Bluesbreaker combo Marshall released had a shallower cab that original KT66 power tubes wouldn't fit into.
    At that time nobody was making a reissue KT66 and original production had ceased.
    So to reissue an amp that could not be configured like an original was more about image than sound.
    They installed 6L6 power tubes and called it good.
    That was maybe at the dawn of the internet and pre gear forum, plus it was at a time when you could still occasionally buy an original Plexi Marshall at a used guitar shop.
    Marshall took some crap for inaccurate reissuing over that.
    Around that time they came out with the 50w Plexi reissue and that one got found to be not-a-plexi inaccurate as well.
    I think the Plexi Super Lead was then a little closer to accurate, but the SLP I bought failed to deliver what I considered "Plexi tone".

    Metropoulos might be the foremost authority on recreating those Plexi Marshalls.

    Marshall seems to be getting pretty good at reproducing the old stuff too though.
    And other reissue component makers are working on pretty good repro caps and such.
    Meanwhile we have amp builders making great tube amps that don't attempt to sound like old records!
    I love the 18w Marshalls but think the modernized TMB version is a better amp.
    Hell even Orange has built some better "Marshalls" than some Marshall built Marshalls.
    There again though, when Orange came back they premiered with a Vox copy! (AD30)
    Great amp though and I bought one from the early runs when they were hard to find in the states.
     
  20. ZackyDog

    ZackyDog Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Location:
    PNW
    I don't follow you on this part.

    As far as I know, the UK made Celestion Blues (CBs) stopped appearing in the VOX Heritage (H), and Custom Classic(CC) series. VOX was using Celestion Blues made in China that utilized a different cone than the Mueller H1777 cone, as employed in the UK CB. I know because I had an AC15HTV, and the amp sounded better with the UK-made Celestion Blue I retrofitted, than the stock Chinese Celestion Blue. I had my Chinese Blue reconed with an H1777 Mueller and it sounded more like the UK Blue. The TBX series used UK made Celestion Blues with the H1777 Mueller cone. You could still buy UK made CBs anywhere (well, in the USA) when the H and CC series came out..

    By the time the HW sand C series came out, VOX got feedback about the cone, and Celestion in China starting using the H1777 cone in their Blue alnico.
     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.