Scales with 'out' notes for blues and rock

[Breen]

Well, in a C blues is the sequence: B C# G# F# out enough? Outness won't be felt with only one out note, you need at least two in succession before landing on a harmonically stable note.

Wow I got a new lick! Thanks Larry!

What I do is play them straight up B C# G# F#, slide to D, bend the blue note on E with a slight sting, and end it with A#- C, emphazing the C as a double note.

I'm sure there is a musical way of saying this, but thats all I got! Sorry, I must be worst then any student you have taught.

 

[jjkrause84]

You can basically substitute ANY "Dominant Quality" Chord, Arpeggio or Melodic Fragment with the same Root, or a Root a b5th. away.

Sweet!

Thanks for the help guys. Lemme work on all this for a couple months and we'll see what happens.

Weeeeee!

EDIT: Can someone go on a bit more about using the same scale but in different keys (i.e. playing G# Dorian over a G tonic in a blues, for example)?

 

[Breen]

Can someone go on a bit more about using the same scale but in different keys (i.e. playing G# Dorian over a G tonic in a blues, for example)?

Substitutions. There is a whole bunch of musical derivative theory going on which I do not know how to quantify in words. Whats sounds good can be played is all I can really truthfully tell you.

I just tried it. Sounds cool~ Its kinda what I would to with the passing tones in a Gblues/Mixo thing. So you could think of going for a G#Dorian in G blues, but it could also mean I'm playing GMixoBlues with passing tones, or just slightly accentuating the F# as a maj7 in a blues. Try doing a F, G#, B, D arp, I think its a diminished arp, starting on the D string F, going back to the same D string F, and closing the lick with the G. Your using G# and the G#Dorian note of D, to add a dark colour to your Gblues. Thats one example I came up with.

I like using the F#, the maj7 in G or the b7 in G#, to play a Albert King blues box Bb hammer to B, where B is a G#Dorian note, and walk up the b7, sycopated maj7 slightly, and the root.

 

[Tim Bowen]

I gotta admit, I can't stand Robben Ford or Scott Henderson or fusion in general and I don't play funk grooves.

That's cool, I can dig it. My tastes have changed a lot over the years. However, harmonic content is harmonic content. I think you (we) should pull from everything and cull nothing. I still pull from all sorts of stylistic influences that don't have that much to do with I do currently, that I lived, slept, and breathed twenty five years ago. The stuff just finds its way within the mental files and ears for recall, with personal taste hopefully being the ultimate gauge.

One problem I have is that I can't think of ANY recods that have what I "like" about outside notes on them, if that makes sense.

I'm wondering if you might enjoy some Kenny Burrell or Grant Green records. Maybe dig back earlier to T-Bone Walker. Perhaps some classic Hammond B3 organ trios as led by guys like Jimmy Smith and Jack McDuff.

 

[String Tree]

Forget all that mess.
In, out, what the heck?
Sometimes you have to go outside to know where the inside is. Sometimes you have to stand in the doorway in the freezing rain until everybody in the house screams for you to come back in. Sometimes you go outside and you don't feel like coming back in. Sometimes they won't let you back in because they changed the lock on the door.

The point is this - the BLUES is a feeling as much as it is a style of music.
For many of these early Bluesmen, they lived a life that was full of pain, suffering and, misfortune. They lived a hard life few of us can imagine.
They lost everything. Few lived to be old men.
What people liked about these guys was that they KNEW what they wanted to play. They TOLD YOU what it was about.
They didn't sing about what they had, they sang about what little they had left. A lot of people could relate to that!

Now its your turn.
When you play a solo, YOU TELL ME how you feel.
Happy, sad, excited, optimistic, how your date went last night.... you can do it!

The ultimate book of all time for scales and modes is the Guitar Grimoire.
Ain't a scale or mode known to western Music that isn't in there. In every key too!

Forget all that mess, get in with what John Lee Hooker is talking about.

 

[jjkrause84]

I got the feeling....don't worry about that (at least, those people who've heard me properly play the blues and myself seem to think so). I just want some more complex words to express more complex emotions (or sets of emotions). Where I REALLY have trouble, honestly, is writing the blues. I can't seem to do it...it just comes out all wrong.

That John Lee Hooker is great, by the way. EARLY Hooker is to die for. Have you heard Jack O' Diamonds?

 

[Mojotron]

OK tell me if this makes sense. If I have this right, I don't think it's all that technical - rather it's a matter of an approach. You do need to master all of the major and blues scales in all areas - form there this is what I do:

I just view modes as playing a major scale that may not agree completely with the underlying flow of the harmony. For instance, if you listen to "So What" you really only feel the mode change for a few seconds because it upset the harmonic flow that you expected to be there... The less aggressive modes are the major scales with the root that start on the 4th or 5th note of the key that the chord roots point to. The more aggressive modes are the major scales with the root that starts on the 7th and maybe 2nd - the others are somewhere in between. This works really easily if you just do this with the Blues scale as well.

So, I have this library of melodies/arps/licks in my head that I know literally backward/forwards and in several different positions on different strings and I know my favorites for picking up the pace, slowing things down, bebop sounding stuff, stuff that sounds great played fast or slow...: What I do is I just keep track of the key that the chord progression is in and then pick a chord to try a mode on. When you get to that chord - pick the possible keys that chord would work in and sort of step off into that new key/mode. Of course, now you are in a mode and the others you are playing with are hopefully keeping the harmonies simple underneath you or are listening to what you are doing and making adjustments.

Sometimes I get a little lost, that's when I leverage the licks in my head in that different key so that when I finish that lick I'm going to be on a note that will allow me to stay there and wait for the chord progression to catch up and then I go back into the original key - or into a different one: Maybe even repeating that lick in the new key. That can help you to play notes that are not in the harmonic flow ("out") and tie them into the original harmonic structure when you find your way back in 2 or 4 bars. I think the important thing is to not be thinking of the organization and individual notes - it's more like down hill skiing - IMO: That is - if you want to ski with fluidity and speed you have to forget about what is 15ft in front of you and focus on what's 45-60 ft down the hill.

That said - another thing is that I don't really view the key that I'm in as much as just the position I'm playing in - then the chords are always the I7, ii7, IVmaj7... and just move around relative to the position I'm in to move into different modes or move from the C scale in the 5th position to arps in the scale that is in the 5th position but in the key of G when I get to the em7. I don't think about individual notes when I'm playing individual notes - I just think about where the chords are going (sometimes simplifying triads so that a viidim or iii7 just becomes a V7 in my head and a IV chord is perhaps a vi chord) and where I want to step into a different mode - then, when I get there that's when I figure out a way to get back - or not... So, when I'm playing chords then I think about where individual notes may fit in the harmonic structure - not when I'm playing individual notes. That's too complicated for me.

That's the way that I think about it and seems to work well. A lot of times I never get a chance to learn a tune that I', sitting in on - I just need to feel the chord changes and know the starting key and I can then play small chord fragments until I get to a solo then I wail away...

A couple of decades ago I found some Satriani Oriental scales in Guitar Player they sounded really cool and I tried to apply those where I could thinking it through completely- never could. I guess that's when I started just seeing those as part of the licks in my head and when I get to a weird chord where I know that scale would work, I'll jump into that scale right then for a couple of bars... That always worked better for me instead of trying to really think it through and stage how I would do it.

 

[Tim Bowen]

Forget all that mess.
In, out, what the heck?
Sometimes you have to go outside to know where the inside is. Sometimes you have to stand in the doorway in the freezing rain until everybody in the house screams for you to come back in. Sometimes you go outside and you don't feel like coming back in. Sometimes they won't let you back in because they changed the lock on the door.

The point is this - the BLUES is a feeling as much as it is a style of music.
For many of these early Bluesmen, they lived a life that was full of pain, suffering and, misfortune. They lived a hard life few of us can imagine.
They lost everything. Few lived to be old men.
What people liked about these guys was that they KNEW what they wanted to play. They TOLD YOU what it was about.
They didn't sing about what they had, they sang about what little they had left. A lot of people could relate to that!

Now its your turn.
When you play a solo, YOU TELL ME how you feel.
Happy, sad, excited, optimistic, how your date went last night.... you can do it!

The ultimate book of all time for scales and modes is the Guitar Grimoire.
Ain't a scale or mode known to western Music that isn't in there. In every key too!

Forget all that mess, get in with what John Lee Hooker is talking about.

That's great and all, but the OP asked about harmonic possibilities, not a dissertation and thesis regarding the societal implications of The Blues.

My daddy lived a hard life too. He knew how to play G,C, and D chords on a mandolin and a guitar. I love John Lee Hooker and own some records. However, as to the question at hand, John Lee's and my daddy's knowledge of tonalities aren't far apart.

This is the theory sub forum.

 

[boneyguy]

That's great and all, but the OP asked about harmonic possibilities, not a dissertation and thesis regarding the societal implications of The Blues.

My daddy lived a hard life too. He knew how to play G,C, and D chords on a mandolin and a guitar. I love John Lee Hooker and own some records. However, as to the question at hand, John Lee's and my daddy's knowledge of tonalities aren't far apart.

This is the theory sub forum.

+1

There's probably no way to say this without ruffling some feathers but I get pretty dismayed with the 'just close your eyes and play with your heart' kind of responses that are inevitably posted when people ask technical questions.

Why does this happen so often? People who are asking questions about theory and technique are not 'missing the point' in some way. In fact they are right on point.

What if your passion was to learn race car driving or how to fly aircraft and you posted on a forum with questions concerning how to acquire and develop some skill regarding those activities and the responses you got were 'just fly that plane with all your heart dude, forget all that techinical crap. You'll just know when you're doing it right' or 'you don't need driving lessons, just get behind the wheel and go for it. Race car driving is all about passion and heart, not technique'. Do you think those sorts of responses would help you get better at either of those undertakings? (he asked rhetorically).

To my mind learning the craft of music is no less technical (or passionate) than either of the two previouly mentioned activities. So let's encourage people to expand the knowledge they put in their heads because ultimately our heads and our hearts share all this information anyway.

 

[slowpinky]

Sometimes you have to go outside to know where the inside is.

And sometimes you need a map to get there.

 

[boneyguy]

And sometimes you need a map to get there.

Ah, maps, my all time favourite metaphor. Don't get me started.....

 

[Charlesinator]

JJ, you know you are my man and I've got your back, but ...

I gotta admit, I can't stand Robben Ford or Scott Henderson or fusion in general and I don't play funk grooves.

Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwt9eKDxbbM

How you can't appreciate Robben Ford, is beyond me this is a textbook answer to the question you asked. I can't get this CD out of my player.

Try this next vid it is a little more blues influenced than the other:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f64XZRRs0jA&feature=related

 

[jazztele]

EDIT: Can someone go on a bit more about using the same scale but in different keys (i.e. playing G# Dorian over a G tonic in a blues, for example)?

Don't overanalyze that--that's sidestepping. Take a lick, play it in key, play it up a half step, resolve to something back in key. Easiest way of getting outside--it's all about how you resolve.

But back to the out of key with scales topic, I was watching some pat martino lessons on youtube last night, and a sound he got at that I really liked was using m7 lines a half step higher than an altered dominant chord, particularly the ever-so-bluesy 7#9.

so Fm7 over E7#9, going for an altered sound with that maj7th in there, but a little "handle with care" and it works...

 

[fezz parka]

To quote Bruce Lee: Don't think..... Feeeeel.

Let's say you're playing the normal pent wank box in A Minor. To turn it on it's head Robben style, check this out:

image removedimage removed

I call it the "Break-out-of- the-box Box".

 

[Charlesinator]

Fezz I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify?

 

[fezz parka]

Maybe this will be easier. Figure one: In the notes in black are your basic pent box.

image removed

To go "modal" use the notes in black here:

image removed

Use the ones in white too!

image removed

 

[Larry F]

Fezz, what is the difference between black and white frets?

Discarding those differences, I would hear this as:

1. A minor pent = A C D E G

2. With 2, B, and 6th, F#, added. This gives A B C D E F# G. You can either hear those as sweet note substitutions for C and G, or as a dorian mode. The difference is that the substitutions are more in line with what I hear in pre-2000 blues, while the scale or mode is more what I hear in younger musicians who think that way.

3. The C# could be heard as the major third. If it is a passing tone between C and D, then it is for color, something that jazzes the sound up. If it is a strong note, then you get A B C# D F# G, or the A mixolydian. With Ken in recovery this week, I have had to take it on myself to talk about modes, which is very much out of character for me.

4. The G# on the 6th string, like C#, is not doubled. The conventional way of hearing this is as a leading tone to the tonic, A. Another way of hearing it is as the 3rd of E7. Also just as a chromatic lower neighbor to A. Your choice of how you hear these is the key to understanding the theory behind these notes. Conversely, once you have a good handle on the theory behind these notes, it becomes much easier to pick them out on a recording.

NOTE: This post was written before Fezz put up the second version. But I think everything I said still applies.

 

[fezz parka]

In black is the scale. In white are the options.

Yep, you got it Larry. I was just trying to "simplify". Lots of guitarists (me included!) think of things as "boxes". It's just my "out-of-the box" box.

Pre-2000 blues. That describes me perfectly.

 

[fezz parka]

Try it over this:

 

[dburns]

Try throwing in some m7b5 arpeggios a Major Third up from dominant 7 chords.

For example, in a G blues: Mess around with an Em7b5 arpeggios/licks over the C7 (IV) chord.