Ruminations on the P90s in my new build

[Boreas]

You should get a lot closer than that. Some of my Gibson pickups have scalloped bobbins from being so close to the strings. No fear of Stratitis with P-90s.

The next time I take the strings off, I may add another shim. As it is, I think I have a 1/2" block in the pocket! But if all I am going to get is a louder quack from the bridge pickup, I may not bother. The neck sounds really good at a slightly higher string gap. This is why I was thinking it was the pickup's distance from the bridge creating the quack.

But I am also considering using a different bridge/whammy system which will drop everything down and reduce the neck angle. Just haven't decided which. Gonna live with it for a while and continue ruminating.

 

[crazydave911]

I have a Grote like the Epiphones with a single neck P90. I've been asked multiple times when I'm adding a bridge pickup. After one weekend playing it, the answer is never. BTW I use 330k pots with P90s

 

[Boreas]

I have a Grote like the Epiphones with a single neck P90. I've been asked multiple times when I'm adding a bridge pickup. After one weekend playing it, the answer is never. BTW I use 330k pots with P90s

Mine currently has 500k pots, but I would be interested in trying a 1M V pot in the future.

 

[crazydave911]

Mine currently has 500k pots, but I would be interested in trying a 1M V pot in the future.

Not really my cup of tea but hey, you never know

 

[trev333]

P90 bridge pu position in a tele?...

I mean, it's still got to look like a tele from across the room, eh?....

 

[Boreas]

Not really my cup of tea but hey, you never know

Well, i also have half-rounds on it currently. I will try normal round-wounds before going to a higher value pot.

 

[Boreas]

P90 bridge pu position in a tele?...

I mean, it's still got to look like a tele from across the room, eh?....

View attachment 1114913 View attachment 1114915

Does it seem to make any difference in tone?

 

[trev333]

I don't think so... it might, I haven't had any other P90 guitars here to compare the subtleties.....

purely aesthetics on my part... Fender single bridge pu's are angled, I kept with the theme for my Tele builds...

 

[Swirling Snow]

I like it, they look like ASATs.

 

[TX_Slinger]

I don't recall anything "premium" about these pickups. IIRC, they were $25 each.

Im just telling you what they were branded as. I believe they were S. Korean Artec made pickups and they had nickel silver baseplates, which would be "premium" over chinese pickups IMHO. They ran $29-$32 each IIRC and sounded great. The $22-$25 ones were standard Wilkinsons.

 

[jvin248]

.

Tip your bridge pickup with the elevator screws so the bass side is higher. I'll often tip neck pickups treble side higher, looks like you raised the e-string.

You may need to drop the neck pickup to balance with the bridge output, if the elevator screws are maxed, and then turn up the amp for more loudness.

Adjusting screw poles heights is like an EQ pedal.

Pickup heights adjustments should be done over a day or two, ears get fatigued where nothing sounds good if attempted in one go.

.

 

[Boreas]

.

Tip your bridge pickup with the elevator screws so the bass side is higher. I'll often tip neck pickups treble side higher, looks like you raised the e-string.

You may need to drop the neck pickup to balance with the bridge output, if the elevator screws are maxed, and then turn up the amp for more loudness.

Adjusting screw poles heights is like an EQ pedal.

Pickup heights adjustments should be done over a day or two, ears get fatigued where nothing sounds good if attempted in one go.

.

Yeah - I am leaving it as-is for a week or so. I am in the process of balancing P90s on an old Duo-Sonic project as well. But things are getting dialed in - just not as much slop as in SCs or HBs. Setting them up with tall bridges and whammys is yet another complicator. But they DO sound great!

 

[stratisfied]

Did you try swapping the neck and bridge pickups? I had a Hagstrom Swede w P90’s that sounded like you described. I swapped their positions and got a nice balanced tone.

 

[JIMMY JAZZMAN]

Love this thread, P-90's are the real rock & roll. Love them on any guitar especially 335's and 339's.

 

[BlueShadows]

So I just "finished" up a recent build with novel parameters I need to adjust to. Ordered a cheap Thinline body that was pre-loaded with stumbling blocks - improper routs, dimensions, and a paper-thin tiger maple top veneer. I added a few stumbling blocks (Moslike trem) of my own as well. But all of that is behind me. The body was supposed to be routed for P90s (which was my intention), but it was routed for Fender WRHBs a'la Squier reissues. Required shim blocks and covers for for installation.

ANYHOO, I found setting up the P90s (Wilkinson) a bit of a challenge and compromise. I used a 3-way switch and 500k pots - audio taper in V, linear taper in T. I absolutely love the neck tone after I found the best height that also involved raising the high E pole piece. I then focused on the bridge pickup. Had difficulty finding the right height - output just didn't seem up to par with the matching neck. Essentially, the bridge pickup wants to quack instead of sing. I have the height maxed out, but it just doesn't catch up to the neck. I had to lower the neck to get close to balancing them. With this compromise, It still sounds like I have two mismatched pickups (the resistance is essentially identical) - both in tone quality and output. Not BAD necessarily, just unexpected. I have also tried my best to keep the pickups "parallel" to the string plane.

After ruminating on the issue for a week I have decided the issue is partly with the design of a P90 and the placement on my guitar. One reads how critical pickup height is to P90 tone and output. Not as much is written about pickup placement on the body. I think the rout placement for the WRHBs on this body - while working well for humbuckers - is not optimal for P90s. Obviously, the neck position seems OK to my ear, but I feel the bridge pickup is located too closely to the bridge. Correct me if I am wrong, but if P90 string proximity is fairly critical, P90 placement WRT string vibration and nodes would be critical as well. I suspect my bridge pickup is located in a position where there isn't sufficient string amplitude to energize this pickup properly - hence the quacky tone. It isn't objectionable once you play a few bars, just a big jump in tone character when switching to position 1 for a solo. Almost like switching to a Strat in mid-song. Oddly, position 2 sounds quite good.

My question is, has anyone with P90 experience figured out an optimal (or at least nominal) placement for the bridge pickup? Or should a Tele player just stick with a Tele pickup at the bridge position?

Thoughts?

View attachment 1114190

Following this as I am embarking on my own similar project. Thinline style body with p90s, but I am placing them in the neck and middle position, leaving the bridge position empty. I have never bonded with bridge tones on any guitar I have ever played, so I took a leap here. Was going to do neck-only, but figured I would get a little crazy. So I am getting a standard p90 for the neck position but am then going with a hotter wound one for the middle to give a little more spank if I need it, but I am a little concerned with them sounding mismatched like you are stating, but I am hoping that being closer together (and further from the bridge) will help balance the sound. The ones I am getting also have adjustable pole pieces for micro-adjustments. I also opted for 500k pots, but did a little back and forth here...what cap did you go with? And do you like your pot choices overall or would you switch anything up there? Guitar looks beautiful!

 

[Boreas]

Following this as I am embarking on my own similar project. Thinline style body with p90s, but I am placing them in the neck and middle position, leaving the bridge position empty. I have never bonded with bridge tones on any guitar I have ever played, so I took a leap here. Was going to do neck-only, but figured I would get a little crazy. So I am getting a standard p90 for the neck position but am then going with a hotter wound one for the middle to give a little more spank if I need it, but I am a little concerned with them sounding mismatched like you are stating, but I am hoping that being closer together (and further from the bridge) will help balance the sound. The ones I am getting also have adjustable pole pieces for micro-adjustments. I also opted for 500k pots, but did a little back and forth here...what cap did you go with? And do you like your pot choices overall or would you switch anything up there? Guitar looks beautiful!

Thanks!

Usually I take a picture of the electronics, but all I have is this build shot which doesn't show the value. I put in a 0.022uf Orange Drop. I love the 500k linear T pot, but don't like the abrupt cutoff of the audio V pot. The next time I have it apart, I am going to replace the V pot with a linear taper. But that is just personal preference and has no real effect on tone. If you like to do swells and such, you may want to stick with audio taper.

If you are planning on using a taller bridge, I would be inclined to install dog-ears instead of soapbars. The mounting should be much simpler.

 

[Boreas]

Did you try swapping the neck and bridge pickups? I had a Hagstrom Swede w P90’s that sounded like you described. I swapped their positions and got a nice balanced tone.

No, I have not, but I certainly could give it a try. I have not measured them, but there should be minimal resistance difference according to the specs. But what I am just noticing is there is a string spacing difference on this set. Perhaps that could explain your results when swapping. It may have resulted in a better blend. Note specs:



But I am getting used to them - especially now that I have the heights where I want them. I also raised the poles on both high E strings - at least for this string set. I suspect if I switch to .009 round-wound strings down the road, I will need to redo the balance.

 

[BlueShadows]

Thanks!

Usually I take a picture of the electronics, but all I have is this build shot which doesn't show the value. I put in a 0.022uf Orange Drop. I love the 500k linear T pot, but don't like the abrupt cutoff of the audio V pot. The next time I have it apart, I am going to replace the V pot with a linear taper. But that is just personal preference and has no real effect on tone. If you like to do swells and such, you may want to stick with audio taper.

If you are planning on using a taller bridge, I would be inclined to install dog-ears instead of soapbars. The mounting should be much simpler.

Nice! I am going to try a .047 just to split the difference and see how it plays. I am also doing soap bars, but am using a hard tail Strat bridge so height shouldn’t be an issue. Was going to go the Tune o Matic route just to really make it a Frankenstein, but didn’t want to mess with the neck tilt and all, so it should still play like a Tele despite being quite a bit different. Parts won’t come in for a month, but I’ll let you know how it goes!

 

[Boreas]

Nice! I am going to try a .047 just to split the difference and see how it plays. I am also doing soap bars, but am using a hard tail Strat bridge so height shouldn’t be an issue. Was going to go the Tune o Matic route just to really make it a Frankenstein, but didn’t want to mess with the neck tilt and all, so it should still play like a Tele despite being quite a bit different. Parts won’t come in for a month, but I’ll let you know how it goes!

Be careful about the depth of the pickup routs. Mine were routed too deeply to begin with - even for WRHBs! So different shims had to be placed because there is not a ton of adjustment with the cheesy screws on the soapbars. They need to be screwed in far enough to keep them from wobbling around, but not so tight they crack the covers. I also found springs easier than foam to mount and adjust them.

Post your project progress!!

 

[Loudog99]

I don’t think anyone has mentioned this. You described the issue as not enough volume in the bridge and that it quacks instead of sings. I had a similar issue with a GFS dream 90. I know it’s not a traditional P90. In my case, I had wires the bridge out of phase which made it quack like the strat in between sound. Try reversing the bridge pickup leads. That did the trick for me. A bridge p90 shouldn’t quack and should give you tons of volume and grit.