Ruminations on the P90s in my new build

[Boreas]

So I just "finished" up a recent build with novel parameters I need to adjust to. Ordered a cheap Thinline body that was pre-loaded with stumbling blocks - improper routs, dimensions, and a paper-thin tiger maple top veneer. I added a few stumbling blocks (Moslike trem) of my own as well. But all of that is behind me. The body was supposed to be routed for P90s (which was my intention), but it was routed for Fender WRHBs a'la Squier reissues. Required shim blocks and covers for for installation.

ANYHOO, I found setting up the P90s (Wilkinson) a bit of a challenge and compromise. I used a 3-way switch and 500k pots - audio taper in V, linear taper in T. I absolutely love the neck tone after I found the best height that also involved raising the high E pole piece. I then focused on the bridge pickup. Had difficulty finding the right height - output just didn't seem up to par with the matching neck. Essentially, the bridge pickup wants to quack instead of sing. I have the height maxed out, but it just doesn't catch up to the neck. I had to lower the neck to get close to balancing them. With this compromise, It still sounds like I have two mismatched pickups (the resistance is essentially identical) - both in tone quality and output. Not BAD necessarily, just unexpected. I have also tried my best to keep the pickups "parallel" to the string plane.

After ruminating on the issue for a week I have decided the issue is partly with the design of a P90 and the placement on my guitar. One reads how critical pickup height is to P90 tone and output. Not as much is written about pickup placement on the body. I think the rout placement for the WRHBs on this body - while working well for humbuckers - is not optimal for P90s. Obviously, the neck position seems OK to my ear, but I feel the bridge pickup is located too closely to the bridge. Correct me if I am wrong, but if P90 string proximity is fairly critical, P90 placement WRT string vibration and nodes would be critical as well. I suspect my bridge pickup is located in a position where there isn't sufficient string amplitude to energize this pickup properly - hence the quacky tone. It isn't objectionable once you play a few bars, just a big jump in tone character when switching to position 1 for a solo. Almost like switching to a Strat in mid-song. Oddly, position 2 sounds quite good.

My question is, has anyone with P90 experience figured out an optimal (or at least nominal) placement for the bridge pickup? Or should a Tele player just stick with a Tele pickup at the bridge position?

Thoughts?

 

[Boreas]

BTW, I am not looking for solutions to this particular guitar, but am just trying to become more knowledgeable for any upcoming projects that may involve P90s.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Boreas, I did not have a P90 guitar so the last barncaster that I built a couple of years ago got that configuration.

I simply put the neck pickup as close to the end of the neck as was reasonable, same with the bridge pup and the half bridge itself. The pups are StewMac's golden era things. Pickup are mounted on foam with screws into the back of the cavity. Standard tele controls - 250K and 0.047 uF. I started with a four way switch which required opening the neck pup and adding a wire to the end of the coil, but as it turned out I was having some trouble with the switch (it was in my used parts box) so I replaced it with a 3 way - I really didn't care for series connection.

I "balanced" the pickups by ear just screwing them up and down until they sounded best. No measurements or anything (I could measure them if you would like). It definitely does not sound like a telecaster - the neck is warm and very jazzty sounding, the bridge is similar but a whole lot brighter. Since the bridge isn't angled the treble strings don't have the high partials that you get with a normal tele single coil. It is totally NOT twangy. For my style of play (solo out of chords) the pickups are perfect - I either use just the neck or the two together, amost never just the bridge.

In fact it is a bit ironic - I now own two telecaster style guitars - the funky barnwood thing and the pretty one made from expensive wood and nice finish (and traditional pups). If I had to do it over I would switch the pickups - the pretty guitar should have the pretty sound.

 

[Boreas]

Boreas, I did not have a P90 guitar so the last barncaster that I built a couple of years ago got that configuration. View attachment 1114283

I simply put the neck pickup as close to the end of the neck as was reasonable, same with the bridge pup and the half bridge itself. The pups are StewMac's golden era things. Pickup are mounted on foam with screws into the back of the cavity. Standard tele controls - 250K and 0.047 uF. I started with a four way switch which required opening the neck pup and adding a wire to the end of the coil, but as it turned out I was having some trouble with the switch (it was in my used parts box) so I replaced it with a 3 way - I really didn't care for series connection.

I "balanced" the pickups by ear just screwing them up and down until they sounded best. No measurements or anything (I could measure them if you would like). It definitely does not sound like a telecaster - the neck is warm and very jazzty sounding, the bridge is similar but a whole lot brighter. Since the bridge isn't angled the treble strings don't have the high partials that you get with a normal tele single coil. It is totally NOT twangy. For my style of play (solo out of chords) the pickups are perfect - I either use just the neck or the two together, amost never just the bridge.

In fact it is a bit ironic - I now own two telecaster style guitars - the funky barnwood thing and the pretty one made from expensive wood and nice finish (and traditional pups). If I had to do it over I would switch the pickups - the pretty guitar should have the pretty sound.

View attachment 1114290

I did some reading on P90s before I installed the guts and the consensus was no one seemed to recommend the 4-way switch, which I had purchased for the project. So I installed a 3-way I had in my pile-o-parts. My guess is the series position turns the quack into a squank, which I really dislike.

This "Thinline" doesn't sound like a Tele nor does it really play like one - mostly because of the 2.5° neck angle and the tall bridge - and it wasn't intended to. The Whammy works well despite the lack of tension bar. But it doesn't take much to get the bridge to rattle a little.

Someday I may switch to my preferred B5 rig. I was trying to use up some of my immense pile-o-parts. I initially was going to use a Jazz trem, but didn't really have the proper tools to rout the body. Had I realized the body was junk earlier on, I would have just used a chisel or hatchet.

 

[Sax-son]

You have to be careful to not compare a normal Telecaster to a project that is fitted with P-90s. You will have a completely different guitar after that. In addition, I have found that it is better to start with a body that is designed for the project at hand. Trying to add a whammy and having an angled neck pocket. You would have be better off with a 335 clone or Gretsch style guitar than a Thinline Telecaster mod. Also, I tend to like the thinline Teles without that F hole cut into it. I think it sounds better without it.

The body can be one of the least expensive parts of the project, you will find it easier to step up on the quality I have found through trial and error.

 

[TX_Slinger]

Guessing those are M-series Wilkinsons? I had Wilkinson Premium P90's (nickle silver bases) in bridge and middle position of a 3-P90 SX Liquid that was Fender scale. Had a G.M. P90 in the neck which was a winning combo. The bridge was a TOM style and the bridge PU wasn't very close to bridge and had more of a fat strat vibe in all 5 positions. Position 4 was really interesting and cool, quacky. The Premium P90s seem to have been discontinued after Musiclily picked up Wilkinson's distribution and now all i see is the stacked Hum cancelling version. Maybe Artec is still making them under their label, also distributed by Musiclily now. Just look for the nickel silver bases (i know, not original design for p90) snd silver printed "Wilkinson" branding. Neck had a dead spot so i sold the guitar (shoulda bought a new neck). Before pickup swap:

 

[Boreas]

You have to be careful to not compare a normal Telecaster to a project that is fitted with P-90s. You will have a completely different guitar after that. In addition, I have found that it is better to start with a body that is designed for the project at hand. Trying to add a whammy and having an angled neck pocket. You would have be better off with a 335 clone or Gretsch style guitar than a Thinline Telecaster mod. Also, I tend to like the thinline Teles without that F hole cut into it. I think it sounds better without it.

The body can be one of the least expensive parts of the project, you will find it easier to step up on the quality I have found through trial and error.

I really wasn't looking to duplicate a Tele - hence the modifications. I have plenty of Teles and Thinlines so I wanted something different.

My question is more about how a P90 performs WRT string deflection/vibration/amplitude. Do they indeed get thinner and quackier as they are placed closer to the bridge? Is yhere an "optimum" distance from the saddles? Is it better to angle them? If I go shopping for another body that is actually routed for soapbars, where should the bridge rout be placed? Perhaps it should be shifted to the "middle" location for a sweeter sound?? Or would that just result in two pickups sounding too similar?

Just asking the questions because string dynamics seem to have a much different effect on P90s. It seems body placement is as critical as pickup height.

 

[schmee]

My P90 Tele type (but it's hollow) is kinda the same. The bridge P90 wont growl, it's clean, middy and tough to get up to the neck volume. I just live with it. I tend to like P90's down from the strings, but this one in the bridge is up while the neck is down. I like it with pickups combined and play mostly with the neck pickup by nature.
If I really crank things the bridge starts to sound better, but can't really play that way.

Yes I think they get thinner and quackier closer to the bridge. But kinda feel most pickups do. There is little string resonance and "wobble" up there, while at the neck pup position the string makes large gyrations when plucked.

I am seldom happy with the bridge position alone on guitars. The Strat middle pickup sounds good to me on leads. If I was building custom, I might put the bridge pup between the normal bridge and mid position.

 

[Boreas]

My P90 Tele type (but it's hollow) is kinda the same. The bridge P90 wont growl, it's clean, middy and tough to get up to the neck volume. I just live with it. I tend to like P90's down from the strings, but this one in the bridge is up while the neck is down. I like it with pickups combined and play mostly with the neck pickup by nature.
If I really crank things the bridge starts to sound better, but can't really play that way.

Yes I think they get thinner and quackier closer to the bridge. But kinda feel most pickups do. There is little string resonance and "wobble" up there, while at the neck pup position the string makes large gyrations when plucked.

I am seldom happy with the bridge position alone on guitars. The Strat middle pickup sounds good to me on leads. If I was building custom, I might put the bridge pup between the normal bridge and mid position.

That is exactly my take as well. I just didn't know if a subtle move toward the neck would make a big difference, or just a subtle change. I guess there is no way to tell without employing the scientific method.

Another interesting thing I noticed rather quickly is the difference in tone when fingerpicking. It is also critical WHERE you pick in relation to the pickup. A slight move closer or further away can make a fairly dramatic difference - kinda like they are really tuned in to your fingers. They seem more dynamic and expressive than either SCs or HBs - but that may be my imagination. I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[schmee]

That is exactly my take as well. I just didn't know if a subtle move toward the neck would make a big difference, or just a subtle change. I guess there is no way to tell without employing the scientific method.

Another interesting thing I noticed rather quickly is the difference in tone when fingerpicking. They seem more dynamic and expressive than either SCs or HBs - but that may be my imagination. I was pleasantly surprised.

Yeah, there is something about P90's regarding dynamics/picking nuance. I've always liked them a lot. I tend to like 250K pots with them.
This was a favorite experiment of mine, all Gibson P90's, '98 MIM Strat. Used it for years:

 

[Boreas]

As people may have noticed, I am new to P90s. I used a set of Strat-sized P90s in another build that really weren't much different than Strat pickups - other than giving up some sweetness for growl. The dynamic qualities noted above were much more subtle - if not imaginary.

 

[Boreas]

I also neglected to mention I am using different strings - at least for me. D'Addario Half-rounds in 10s. S'posably they are wound in SS. I don't know how a P90 "sees" SS. I can tell they are a little mellow for sure when played acoustically.

 

[Hodgo88]

As a thought exercise, yes - bringing the pickup closer would balance them. The extreme example being if you simply replaced the bridge with the identical neck it should sound identical, right?

If they are both A5/4, maybe swap a pair of A2/3 into the neck to lower the overall output.

 

[Boreas]

As a thought exercise, yes - bringing the pickup closer would balance them. The extreme example being if you simply replaced the bridge with the identical neck it should sound identical, right?

If they are both A5/4, maybe swap a pair of A2/3 into the neck to lower the overall output.

Thanks. I have dumped enough money into this project. But I may save that idea for the next project coming down the line. I can lower the height in the neck to balance them volume-wise, but at the loss of testicular fortitude and tone as well.

The bridge tone isn't useless - it is just rather a jarring departure in tonality from 2 & 3. Just gonna take some getting used to. I am not a pro or performer, so what happens in my recliner stays in my recliner.

Every build I do I try to do at least a couple things that wouldn't be found in a production guitar. So it is basically like throwing spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks. The meatballs fall right off. So far, the only meatball on this build is the too-tall bridge. The next plate of spaghetti may be a P90 neck with a Tele bridge. Or a lipstick and a foil. Or that Coodercaster I have been thinking about - if I can track down the right bridge pickup.

 

[Boreas]

Guessing those are M-series Wilkinsons? I had Wilkinson Premium P90's (nickle silver bases) in bridge and middle position of a 3-P90 SX Liquid that was Fender scale. Had a G.M. P90 in the neck which was a winning combo. The bridge was a TOM style and the bridge PU wasn't very close to bridge and had more of a fat strat vibe in all 5 positions. Position 4 was really interesting and cool, quacky. The Premium P90s seem to have been discontinued after Musiclily picked up Wilkinson's distribution and now all i see is the stacked Hum cancelling version. Maybe Artec is still making them under their label, also distributed by Musiclily now. Just look for the nickel silver bases (i know, not original design for p90) snd silver printed "Wilkinson" branding. Neck had a dead spot so i sold the guitar (shoulda bought a new neck). Before pickup swap:

View attachment 1114555

I don't recall anything "premium" about these pickups. IIRC, they were $25 each.

 

[Hodgo88]

Or that Coodercaster I have been thinking about - if I can track down the right bridge pickup.

String-Through Steel

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[Boreas]

String-Through Steel

Check out the deal on String-Through Steel at Lollar Pickups

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Jeezus....I may have to look for a used one!

 

[Swirling Snow]

How close did you get the pickup to the strings?

Gibson usually has about an 1" and 1/4" between the saddles and the poles.

 

[Boreas]

How close did you get the pickup to the strings?

Gibson usually has about an 1" and 1/4" between the saddles and the poles.

About 1.75" from the bridge. About 3/8" gap at present, although I can go higher if I add a shim.

 

[Swirling Snow]

You should get a lot closer than that. Some of my Gibson pickups have scalloped bobbins from being so close to the strings. No fear of Stratitis with P-90s.