Remember the modes patterns

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by gambiz, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. gambiz

    gambiz TDPRI Member

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    Do i really need to learn remember these patterns of dorian, phrygian and so on. The simpliest way should be to just remember the major scale and then move the starting note, ex if i think c major but start and root note f and then i have a f lydian scale, right?
     
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  2. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    That's what I do. I've known and used modes since the late 1960s, but I gradually came around to your way of thinking. Modes have a historical presence in music dating back centuries. But the way they have been used is much different than the current internet theory of modes (which is a variation of the Greek modes used by John LaPorta, Rich Mattson, and Jack Peterson of the Berklee School of Music).

    While I criticize this use of modes in our current musical environment, I should mention that they are many cool uses of it in Medieval music and 60s jazz players such as McCoy Tyner. Again, these conceptions of modes are quite different than the internet version. I think the internet version has created more complexity and confusion than actually explaining anything about the music.
     
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  3. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

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    Larry , if you don t mind, while you re here, I think this may be mode related. On my fretless bass, there seemed to be a 3rd in between minor and major. It took 5 minutes of just plucking to break what the ears expect, to lose the well tempered bias, but eventually it sounded quite non-disident. Were me and my friend actually hearing something real or just fooling ourselves ? I hit it by accident once, then experimented to find it again.
     
  4. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    It's very common to pull a minor 3rd sharp. A little less than than 1/2 way. I do it all the time. I like my minor 3rds a hair sharp. *Melodies only. I can't really do it with chords.

    As for how to or what to remember as far as 'modes' are concerned ...
    What do think you need to do with them?
    What would you like to do with them?

    If you want to use them as a tool in your soloing, it's really good to be able to know them from the parent major scale (C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian) as well as from the same root (C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, etc.). Doing that will reveal different things as to application.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  5. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    Remember these modes are also called scales. In modern western music like jazz or pop music the term scale is what is used.

    The exception is in metal where the tune revolves around one modal sound like Phrygian. But all that other music uses scales and the chords derived from them.

    And not to derail what I've already meantioned,,, but,,,
    Blues is a 3rd musical language, and is easy to play, rock 101, but it's the hardest to grasp in words.

    So, 3 ways of playing over a given chord,,
    1. Modal - one scale over one chord or drone
    2. Diatonic - means chord changes
    3. Blues - playing "wrong" notes against right chords. Playing tones not found at the fret, microbends.

    If you really want to understand the game of music, it would really help to have a deep understanding of all three of these approaches.
     
  6. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    What you're doing when making the microbend is going from the tone found on the unbent fret, this is called equal temperment, the notes found on the fret.

    The microbend takes you to that wonderful sweet spot. This sweet spot is a Just Intonation tone. I don't call it a note because it is not one of the 12 note, it's in between.

    Anyway, Equal Temperment and Just Intonation. Look them up on line, tons of stuff on the subject. Look as it relates to blues. I told you it was weird and hard.
     
  7. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Sweet thread :)
     
  8. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    I am quite familiar with just v. equal. I work with some players that play ethnic insts that are justly tuned. *I guess I pull my m3s a hair more than 3 cents sharp.
    I didn't want to get too into 'that' discussion here since the OP is asking about how to learn scales and modes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  9. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    I was talking about the extremely popular blues, that is used in rock, not talking about ethnic music. Just trying to be nice.

    Also, what is v. equal?
     
  10. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    Just intonation versus Equal temperament.
     
  11. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    Not to get too far afield, but when I play a C blues, I often regard Eb to E as filled with as many microtones as I want. They all sound good, whether as standalone notes or notes within a microtonal passage. Same thing with F to G. Anything in between those notes has some interesting expressive colors.

    Lately, it seems as if I have been reading on the internet that some guitar players regard Eb as a too low major third. I think it is a mistake to assume that.
     
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  12. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    Ha, ha!
    The internet is a helluva place sometimes.
     
  13. ahnadr

    ahnadr TDPRI Member Silver Supporter

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    Instead of thinking of those shapes as "other" modes, one could see them as different positions/ inversions of the major. Either way if you are going to use more than four of those frets those other patterns are needed.
     
  14. picknfool

    picknfool Tele-Holic

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    I don't see all modes as equally useful. I use Ionan(I Maj), Dorian (ii min), Mixolydian (VMaj -Dom7), and Aeolian (vi min) extensively, the others not very often.
     
  15. Televised

    Televised Friend of Leo's

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    Me too! With Minor Pentatonic, Major Pentatonic, and Blues Scale thrown in with some form of random juggling about with all of them.
     
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  16. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    Hypothetical question. When you say you use the dorian mode in your playing, what do you mean by that? This is directed toward any and all.
     
  17. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    When 'I' say it, it means that I am emphasizing the the natural 6th and the b7th degrees in relation to the root, 3rd and many times the 2nd over (generally) a minor 7th or minor 9th chord. These are the tones that make it "Dorian" minor as opposed to Aeolian, Harmonic or Melodic minor.

    *Those that are familiar with me here will also probably remember that I employ what's sometimes referred to as Dorian conversion to dominant 7th chords. Example: for G7 (or G9 or G13) I will many times play/use a D dorian mode. Yes, I know that G mixo-lydian and D dorian contain all the same notes (in fact, all the notes of the C major scale). I find that using the 5th (of G) as my linear and harmonic axis opens up a ton of melodic and intervallic possibilities that may not be so obvious if I'm thinking G7. This technique, dorian or minor conversion, is very common among jazz and jazz/rock improvisors. It started gaining popularity in the mid 60s.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  18. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    Ken, does your dorian conversion to dom 7th chords give you non-diatonic notes? Does it suggest new interval patterns? Harmonic center?

    I'd also like to hear from non-Ken people about how they the dorian mode in their playing.

    Back to Ken. I am beginning to think that the way you think of scales/modes is the way that I think of harmonic and non-harmonic tones of the chord progression.
     
  19. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    Right.
     
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  20. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    In it's simplest application - no, all the tones are diatonic. G9 = Dm11.
    *Minor Conversion though, when extrapolated, includes mel min and harm min which give you non-diatonic tones but that gets a lot more complex as far as it's application and probably not for this thread. Also, as you become a better improvisor you learn to employ the upper and lower neighboring tones.

    For me it (minor conversion) absolutely suggests different and not so obvious intervallic patterns and arpeggios and I absolutely shift my harmonic 'center' (I tend to shift back because I usually like to resolve).

    I also use the concept backwards
    . If the chord is Dm, I can now think/play G7. I do this in minor blues all the time over the (minor) iv chord.

    **This is all great for chord voicings too. Not just single line improv.

    One of the cool things for guitarists in employing the minor conversion is that now you have that oh so familiar minor pentatonic shape, which outlines most minor scales, available to you when improvising over non blues type chords.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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