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Real time band practice software - Zoom? FaceTime no bueno - IT people?

Discussion in 'Band Wagon' started by teletimetx, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. pinkpanda

    pinkpanda TDPRI Member

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    That really sounds like the most fun option! Unless you're the drummer :lol:
     
  2. kplamann

    kplamann Tele-Holic

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    That is really impressive !

    However I believe this was done by everybody using a click track. Internet latency certainly renders it impossible to play together in a synchronised way.

    Otherwise:

    Like a couple of other posters I continue my university teaching activities online; my wife teaches the recorder and traverso flute online (but she does not play together with her students).

    If you want to go back and forth between different band members playing, online rehearsals might work out.

    From our experience: a good internet connection is crucial. Use ethernet and no WLAN / WiFi. Use headphoes, good microphones and your DAW interface (you may then disable "echo suppression" algorithms).

    The Discord platform is fun inasmuch it also allows to interact by written chats and you can exchange smaller files (< 8MB if I remember it correctly, enough for compressed mp3). Otherwise Zoom etc. No fan of Skype.
     
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  3. 41144

    41144 Tele-Afflicted

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    Try Jitsi ...app or browser usage, fully open source and free originally developed as an academic video conf tool.
     
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  4. Alter

    Alter Tele-Meister

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    Nothing works unfortunately
     
  5. johnDH

    johnDH Tele-Meister

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    I'm using Zoom every day for my engineering teaching, and with my guitar teacher for my lessons. It works well for that because we don't need to play together, I listen then he listens. Latency would be a killer most likely for playing together.

    But we get good sound each way, I send him a mix of direct out and a decent dynamic Mic, through a mixer into my laptop. I only have less than 1Mbs upload speed.

    I think Zoom can be a useful musical tool for colaboration, just not quite all together in one take.
     
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  6. Pineears

    Pineears Tele-Afflicted

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    If you watch some news on TV you’ll see the latency problem making them talk over each other/interrupt/both quit talking.
     
  7. beninma

    beninma Friend of Leo's

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    I’ve had 2 guitar lessons over zoom the last few weeks. We are doing less jamming together and instead going back and forth but it’s mostly working.

    I’m relying a little more on getting the sheet music from my teacher and printing it out one day ahead of time to prepare which is helping.

    I usually get together with friends once a week, I’m missing that playing. Maybe it’s time to try it.

    If you can’t actually play tightly together perhaps it’s still possible to trade off parts, learn a song together, etc.. and collaborate in some way.

    I think the goal is “better than nothing” here.

    I suppose we should all be trying to make some videos or recordings at this time. I haven’t gotten over the hump to put myself out there like that but I guess I should.
     
  8. maxvintage

    maxvintage Poster Extraordinaire

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    It's never going to work in the near future--as other mention too much latency, too many variables.

    I've been thinking my bands could get tunes together by sending around tracks. That's easy, but of course then its nothing like the pleasures of playing live with people
     
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  9. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    A number of years ago, a company called eJamming tried to synchronize signal streams (I think with delay). Here's a demo of it with Smashmouth.

    A friend and I tried it but couldn't find each other. Instead, random 14 year olds in Wisconsin would log on and ask if we wanted to jam.

    Anyway, didn't work, bigtime.
     
  10. tele12

    tele12 Friend of Leo's

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  11. fendrguitplayr

    fendrguitplayr Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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  12. codamedia

    codamedia Poster Extraordinaire

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    When 5G is in widespread use it might be worth another visit. One of it's key features is how low 2 way latency is. I'm still skeptical... it might get better but I think "real time" will require very expensive internet packages... practical for business but out of reach for most homes.

    What most people don't realize is that the average internet connection simply does not have the upload speeds to effectively pull this off. We can watch stuff quickly and download audio/video fast enough, but we can't "deliver our part" from our homes fast enough. Ever try to upload a large file? Unless you have paid your provider great money it takes about 10 - 20 times longer to upload the file than it does to download the same size.
     
  13. KuntaKinte

    KuntaKinte NEW MEMBER!

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    I tried :
    • Jamkazam
      • Very unstable, lots of crashes.
      • Sometimes extremely slow to setup a jam session.
      • I was able to connect with one friend and it worked actually really well once we got it working. Only a few ms latency and very jammable.
      • Looked promising, but I don't think they have an active team to update this product and make it a viable option.
    • Zoom
      • Did not work, sound cuts when trying to play at the same time. I tried with an option allowing every attendant to share simultaneously, but it never worked.
      • Me and my buddy wanted to practice a song, and what we did is he put himself on mute and I played the bass so he could hear me and play along with the guitar. We tried Jigsaw falling into place from Radiohead. The bass being very present, it was working for this situation but I could not hear him.
    • Facetime
      • Same issue as Zoom, sound cut when trying to play at the same time.

    Next on the list was Jammr. Did not get to it yet. I thought about trying Discord, but didn't get to it yet. I saw some musicians on Twitch use it to play live with other users, but I think one of them won't hear the other(s) play...

    Following the very hopeful Jamkazam, I am confident we will get a working tool pretty soon. It's a must!
     
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  14. ndcaster

    ndcaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    I looked into Jammr. No video. It is not purely "live" but, accepting latency, organizes incoming data by staggering it somehow.

    Here's the developer's explanation of how to use it:

    "jammr is designed for improvising to a chord progression (usually 4 or 8 bars).
    It is different from playing together in real life. Here is an explanation of how
    to successfully jam together using jammr.

    1. Post the chord progression in the chat

    Enter the chord progression that you want to play into the chat so others know
    which chords to play. A simple text notation like “Am Am7 F G” is easy to
    read for A-minor A-minor-7 F-major G-major.

    If the progression is long or has chord changes within a bar then it helps to
    write it like this “Am | Am Am7 | F | G” to show that the Am7 chord is played
    partway through the second bar.

    Common chord notations:
    A - A major
    Am - A minor
    A7 - A dominant 7
    Am7 - A minor dominant 7
    Amaj7 - A major 7
    Asus4 - A suspended 4
    A7b5 - A dominant 7 flat 5
    Aadd11 - A major with added 11
    Adim - A diminished

    2. Set Beats Per Interval (BPI)

    Tell jammr how many beats are in the chord progression so it can keep you in
    sync. For example, if the chord progression is 4 bars long then set BPI to 16
    because 4 bars x 4 beats = 16. Another common BPI value is 48 for a 12-bar
    blues.

    Use the “!vote bpi 16” chat command to set BPI to 16 or click Vote | BPI in the
    menu bar.

    This step is essential! If BPI isn't set to the length of the chord
    progression then you will not be in sync with others.

    3. Set Beats Per Minute (BPM)

    Tell jammr the tempo of your jam session so it can keep you in sync. This must
    be set even if there are drums. When playing without drums it is recommended
    to enable the metronome so you hear the tempo you are playing at.

    Use the “!vote bpm 120” chat command to set BPM to 120 or click Vote | BPM in
    the menu bar.

    This step is essential! If BPM doesn't match the tempo you are playing at then
    you will not be in sync with others.

    If you follow these 3 steps you will have successful jam sessions with everyone
    playing in sync. You can learn more about jammr's interval-based jamming
    system in this forum thread."
     
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  15. joe_cpwe

    joe_cpwe Tele-Afflicted

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    Real time band rehearsal for me starts in May. We had a call yesterday.
    Unless everything goes completely sideways this month in May it's on.
     
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  16. grandstick

    grandstick Tele-Holic

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    Zoom has it's own security issues. The app will share personal information to third parties, without your knowledge or permission.
     
  17. pinkpanda

    pinkpanda TDPRI Member

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    I tried Zoom, Houseparty, Jamkazam, Jamulus and Ninjam last week with my band. None of them worked because of the latency. If you want to get it working, use a jam program and a wired connection.

    I collected my findings in a new video, because quarantine is killing me :)



    Haven't looked into Jammr though. Anyone had experiences with it yet?
     
  18. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    I spent several hours trying to get JamKazam working on a Mac with a hard wired Ethernet connection. I couldn't get the software to boot up fully successfully despite numerous attempts at adjusting router and security settings, firewall settings, IP addressing protocols, etc. There were some tech blogs at the jamkazam website with various fixes suggested-- I even successfully used Unix commands in the terminal to break the program out of Apple Quarantine. Bottom line on MAC OS is third party apps not in the App Store often have these kinds of problems, some of it caused by internal Apple security protocols. I think in order for these programs to work you have to create a fairly open two-way pipe over the Internet to your machine and that often conflicts with normal security protocols. Anyway, I sent the log that gets generated to JamKazam for their review. They responded but didn't have any specific suggestions as to how to fix the problem. My drummer did get it working on his PC. I'm not surprised since PC is much more of an open source design paradigm...I certainly wouldn't have spent this many hours trying if my drummer hadn't been lobbying for it. I have done lots of different OS's and networking stuff so I'm not an idiot on this stuff....so in my view this product is not yet ready for prime time....although clearly it sometimes works since others have been somewhat successful on both Mac and PC.
     
  19. Keyedup

    Keyedup NEW MEMBER!

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    Audiomovers appears to be a solid option for remotely mixing or collaborating on tracks. This video shows you how to incorporate the plug-in through your DAW. The 'Listen to' option is what allows you to have a high quality listening stream without any stuttering. You can also set to PCM and adjust latency It was easy to set up, and you just need to send a link to your client or whomever you are collaborating with. HOWEVER, I have not used it to play live with a bandmate yet, but there is an option called 'Listen to Receiver' that allows the other player to send signal back. I haven't tested it yet, but by all accounts this is one of the most reliable options thus far. The video walks you through the set up process:
     
  20. Brian Peaker

    Brian Peaker NEW MEMBER!

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    I'm looking for the same solution in a bell ringing context. We want to continue church bell ringing practice using hand bells. Here are my thoughts -

    It looks like the problem is with the software trying to eliminate “howl round” or echo.

    WIth my laptop, the mike is about 8cm from the speaker. If someone else chimes a bell, the noise from my speaker goes into the mike and is sent to everyone. Their speakers passes the noise to their mikes and off it goes again - hence the howling round. It does it very quickly and sounds a screech or the whistle you get with hearing aid with the volume turned up.

    Zoom, FaceTime etc. seem to handle this by guessing who the Talker is and muting other people's microphone signals. You can see this in ‘gallery’ mode on Zoom when the coloured square appears around the selected Talker or the big tile changes to the Talker in the 'speaker' mode. (You can hear both handbells clearly from two people using the same mike/speaker because they are both the Talker.) Zoom works OK for one to one conversation because we use various cues to stop/start talking and not talk over each other. In groups we need a chair person to control us and there are protocols for teleconferencing. With music the noise lingers - we need to chime the next bell before the previous one has stopped reverberating. When should Zoom move the Talker focus from one bell to the next?

    Switching Zoom to “Turn on original sound” may stop the software fiddling with the audio but is likely to result in more howl round.

    A way to break the mike/speaker feedback may be to use headphones or ear buds. OK for one person/one device but couples would need a device each or a double jack.

    Has anyone tried this?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
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