Real Differences between C10N and C10NS (is C10NS equaled to C8284 and C8306?)?

[cs1botasky]

Hello guys, I have a couple of questions about the C10N and mainly about the C10NS.

1) I haven't seen a Fender labelled Jensen marked "C10NS" at the rim of a speaker yet, but I have seen many sellers represent their marked "C8284" or "C8306" Jensen speakers as C10NS. May I ask if these "C8284" and "C8306" Jensen speakers are actually a C10NS?

2) If the C10NS are actually the "C8284" and "C8306" Jensen speakers, are these C10NS/C8284/C8306 Jensen speakers all the same but only different in model numbers?

3) If the C10NS are actually the "C8284" and "C8306" Jensen speakers, may I ask what are the difference between them and a C10N apart from the smooth (C10N) and ribbed (C10NS/C8284/C8306) cone? I have noticed others had said the C10NS/C8284/C8306 have a smaller magnet than the C10N, but I am not sure, because the magnet on these speakers (C10N and C10NS/C8284/C8306) all look very similar in size to me.

4) If I recone an original C10N (it's from a hammond) from the smooth cone to a ribbed cone, would it sound pretty much identical to a C10NS (apart from the fact that cone is new but not vintage)?

Thanks so much for your help in advance, any input is welcomed!

 

[uriah1]

As they say ribbed for pleasure. I have never liked Smooth cones for 6 string guitar. Imho.

 

[68goldtop]

Hi!

Hello guys, I have a couple of questions about the C10N and mainly about the C10NS.

1) I haven't seen a Fender labelled Jensen marked "C10NS" at the rim of a speaker yet, but I have seen many sellers represent their marked "C8284" or "C8306" Jensen speakers as C10NS. May I ask if these "C8284" and "C8306" Jensen speakers are actually a C10NS?
...

Yes, it seems to be the "general consensus" that these are C10NS-speakers...

I only have experience with the C8306 and a C10N, and the difference in tone and appearance was quite apparent.
The magnet on the C10N was noticeably larger, and I thought it sounded quite "brash"/in your face...
the magnet on the C8306 was smaller and it sounded a lot "sweeter" by any standards...

I´ll try to attach two images:





You'll see that the magnet on the C10N exceeds the rim of the speaker-frame, whereas the magnet on the C8306 doesn't...

So, I doubt you'll get the sound of the C8306 if you re-cone a C10N... but that wouldn't keep me from trying
Plus - a good re-coner might be able to push it in the right direction


Hi uriah1!

As they say ribbed for pleasure. I have never liked Smooth cones for 6 string guitar. Imho.

Not sure about this...
I have two Weber 8" speakers (AlNiCo and ceramic sig s) with smooth cones, and I think both sound very good - I never tried a 10" or 12" with a smooth cone, though...

cheers - 68.

 

[NTC]

I have 3x smooth cone 10's in a Bandmaster and a smooth cone 12 in my 5E3 and like them. All are Webers, p10R and P12R (now 10A100 and 12A100).

 

[milocj]

Hi!

Yes, it seems to be the "general consensus" that these are C10NS-speakers...

I only have experience with the C8306 and a C10N, and the difference in tone and appearance was quite apparent.
The magnet on the C10N was noticeably larger, and I thought it sounded quite "brash"/in your face...
the magnet on the C8306 was smaller and it sounded a lot "sweeter" by any standards...

I´ll try to attach two images:

View attachment 960742

View attachment 960743

You'll see that the magnet on the C10N exceeds the rim of the speaker-frame, whereas the magnet on the C8306 doesn't...

So, I doubt you'll get the sound of the C8306 if you re-cone a C10N... but that wouldn't keep me from trying
Plus - a good re-coner might be able to push it in the right direction


Hi uriah1!

Not sure about this...
I have two Weber 8" speakers (AlNiCo and ceramic sig s) with smooth cones, and I think both sound very good - I never tried a 10" or 12" with a smooth cone, though...

cheers - 68.

I seem to recall years back that the C10NS was basically the C10N voice coil (which I believe is 1.5") used with a C10Q magnet (that would normally have a 1.25" voice coil). This would be the same main principle in modern terms of mixing a Weber 10F150 cone and coil and a 10F125 magnet.

 

[Lorestone]

If I remember correctly, the C8284 came in the Vibrolux Reverb and the C8306 came in the Princeton and Princeton Reverb. I'm not sure what the difference between the two is, but whatever it is, it is very subtle. An old Waldom parts catalog that supplied recone parts, including OEM Jensen cones with a Waldom number stamped on them, specified the same cone for both C8284 & C8306. They are indeed both C10NS. The C10NS actually has a "P" sized magnet which is a little smaller than the "N" magnet. It qualifies for an "N" rating by virtue of a high temperature voice coil. So the C10NS and C10P look identical, both have a 1.5" voice coil, have the same cone (or very close), sound the same, but presumably the C10NS would be able to handle a bit more power. Years ago I compared the C10NS and C10N and preferred the added wallop and solid authoritative low end that the larger magnet C10N provides, but I've read some folks preferring the original C10NS for a Vibrolux Reverb.
Many C10N that you might see have smooth cones. These generally came in organs, sometimes in Leslie spinet modules. But C10N were also made with the same ribbed, curved seam, rubberized edge cone that you see in the C10NS. I have many of the C10N/C10NS,C10P cone codes written down somewhere, but it's not handy right at the moment. There is a series of cones with ribs, curved seam, and rubberized edge that all look identical but have some slight difference in a numeral in the code. I do recall that the C10NS cone is also used on certain C10N. As far as reconing the C10N, if you reconed it with an original cone it would sound very much like the C10NS except with more solid bass. However, speakers reconers will tell you how great their C10N cones are but they're not going to sound anything like the original. My speaker repairman has a couple Waldom OEM C10N cones. He's also got some OEM 21 rib cones for the C12NA, which is the "Fender by Jensen" C12N that was fitted in Twin Reverbs, Pro Reverbs, and Bassman cabs. The code on them is not Waldom, but some other company, but they are OEM Donal cones and once broken in sound superb. I also have some of these cones, plus OEM 10 rib C12N cones with and without rubberized edge (with Waldom codes - some even had the Jensen code stamp crossed out with black marker), plus possibly a couple OEM C10N cones. I"m not sure what the policy is on this, but I'm not actively trying to sell any. You can PM me to inquire if you're in need. The speaker repair guy is: Ezra Mulharen, MSR Sound, msrsound@together.net. He does phenomenal work.

 

[Lorestone]

I seem to recall years back that the C10NS was basically the C10N voice coil (which I believe is 1.5") used with a C10Q magnet (that would normally have a 1.25" voice coil). This would be the same main principle in modern terms of mixing a Weber 10F150 cone and coil and a 10F125 magnet.

Somewhere along the line some supposed Fender "expert" stated that Vibrolux Reverbs came with C10Q. This was apparently based on observing that the magnet was smaller than a C10N magnet without actually taking the trouble to measure. That was totally wrong. That inaccuracy was repeated ad infinitum. The C10NS is a C10P with a high temperature voice coil. The C10P has the same basket and 1.5" sized voice coil as the C10N with the smaller "P" sized magnet. In the past I have measured and recorded the respective magnet diameters of N, P, Q, and R sized magnets but no longer have that info. It's not really needed - you can tell just by looking.

 

[vintagevette53]

If I remember correctly, the C8284 came in the Vibrolux Reverb and the C8306 came in the Princeton and Princeton Reverb. I'm not sure what the difference between the two is, but whatever it is, it is very subtle. An old Waldom parts catalog that supplied recone parts, including OEM Jensen cones with a Waldom number stamped on them, specified the same cone for both C8284 & C8306. They are indeed both C10NS. The C10NS actually has a "P" sized magnet which is a little smaller than the "N" magnet. It qualifies for an "N" rating by virtue of a high temperature voice coil. So the C10NS and C10P look identical, both have a 1.5" voice coil, have the same cone (or very close), sound the same, but presumably the C10NS would be able to handle a bit more power. Years ago I compared the C10NS and C10N and preferred the added wallop and solid authoritative low end that the larger magnet C10N provides, but I've read some folks preferring the original C10NS for a Vibrolux Reverb.
Many C10N that you might see have smooth cones. These generally came in organs, sometimes in Leslie spinet modules. But C10N were also made with the same ribbed, curved seam, rubberized edge cone that you see in the C10NS. I have many of the C10N/C10NS,C10P cone codes written down somewhere, but it's not handy right at the moment. There is a series of cones with ribs, curved seam, and rubberized edge that all look identical but have some slight difference in a numeral in the code. I do recall that the C10NS cone is also used on certain C10N. As far as reconing the C10N, if you reconed it with an original cone it would sound very much like the C10NS except with more solid bass. However, speakers reconers will tell you how great their C10N cones are but they're not going to sound anything like the original. My speaker repairman has a couple Waldom OEM C10N cones. He's also got some OEM 21 rib cones for the C12NA, which is the "Fender by Jensen" C12N that was fitted in Twin Reverbs, Pro Reverbs, and Bassman cabs. The code on them is not Waldom, but some other company, but they are OEM Donal cones and once broken in sound superb. I also have some of these cones, plus OEM 10 rib C12N cones with and without rubberized edge (with Waldom codes - some even had the Jensen code stamp crossed out with black marker), plus possibly a couple OEM C10N cones. I"m not sure what the policy is on this, but I'm not actively trying to sell any. You can PM me to inquire if you're in need. The speaker repair guy is: Ezra Mulharen, MSR Sound, msrsound@together.net. He does phenomenal work.

Hello....your post caught my attention as I have a 1965 all original Fender Vibrolux Reverb rated at 35 watts with C10NS speakers & they are marked C10NS. What size magnet(never measured it) should mine have? Here is a photo showing the stamped C10NS & C8284 rim.
Thanks!
Robert

 

[slider313]

Hello....your post caught my attention as I have a 1965 all original Fender Vibrolux Reverb rated at 35 watts with C10NS speakers & they are marked C10NS. What size magnet(never measured it) should mine have? Here is a photo showing the stamped C10NS & C8284 rim.
Thanks!
Robert

The C10NS is basically a C10P with the higher wattage rating of the C10N. The C10P had a 16 oz. magnet. Fender spec'd the C10NS for use in the Vibrolux Reverb and they can be found in some Princeton and Princeton Reverb amps. The C8284 number is a production "lot" number. By late 1965 the Fender part number took the place of the model designation. This helped the factory keep inventory and pick parts by a numbered system. So, C10NS was dropped from the rim and in its place 023036 became the part number for the Vibrolux Reverb and 023010 was used in the Princeton. Other branded speakers, like Oxford and Utah, also received this numbered code so it's not specific to Jensen.

Here's a side by side photo of a C10NS and C10P.

 

[vintagevette53]

Slider...thank you so much for those answers because as much as I searched the internet, I couldn't find any real reasons/answers. Does the C10P & the C10NS have the same size 16 ounce magnet? Also...you mentioned "The C10NS is basically a C10P with the higher wattage rating of the C10N." To clarify...Does this mean that the C10NS had a higher wattage rating than the C10N? What does the "S" stand for in the C10NS?
Thank you so very very much!

 

[vintagevette53]

If I remember correctly, the C8284 came in the Vibrolux Reverb and the C8306 came in the Princeton and Princeton Reverb. I'm not sure what the difference between the two is, but whatever it is, it is very subtle. An old Waldom parts catalog that supplied recone parts, including OEM Jensen cones with a Waldom number stamped on them, specified the same cone for both C8284 & C8306. They are indeed both C10NS. The C10NS actually has a "P" sized magnet which is a little smaller than the "N" magnet. It qualifies for an "N" rating by virtue of a high temperature voice coil. So the C10NS and C10P look identical, both have a 1.5" voice coil, have the same cone (or very close), sound the same, but presumably the C10NS would be able to handle a bit more power. Years ago I compared the C10NS and C10N and preferred the added wallop and solid authoritative low end that the larger magnet C10N provides, but I've read some folks preferring the original C10NS for a Vibrolux Reverb.
Many C10N that you might see have smooth cones. These generally came in organs, sometimes in Leslie spinet modules. But C10N were also made with the same ribbed, curved seam, rubberized edge cone that you see in the C10NS. I have many of the C10N/C10NS,C10P cone codes written down somewhere, but it's not handy right at the moment. There is a series of cones with ribs, curved seam, and rubberized edge that all look identical but have some slight difference in a numeral in the code. I do recall that the C10NS cone is also used on certain C10N. As far as reconing the C10N, if you reconed it with an original cone it would sound very much like the C10NS except with more solid bass. However, speakers reconers will tell you how great their C10N cones are but they're not going to sound anything like the original. My speaker repairman has a couple Waldom OEM C10N cones. He's also got some OEM 21 rib cones for the C12NA, which is the "Fender by Jensen" C12N that was fitted in Twin Reverbs, Pro Reverbs, and Bassman cabs. The code on them is not Waldom, but some other company, but they are OEM Donal cones and once broken in sound superb. I also have some of these cones, plus OEM 10 rib C12N cones with and without rubberized edge (with Waldom codes - some even had the Jensen code stamp crossed out with black marker), plus possibly a couple OEM C10N cones. I"m not sure what the policy is on this, but I'm not actively trying to sell any. You can PM me to inquire if you're in need. The speaker repair guy is: Ezra Mulharen, MSR Sound, msrsound@together.net. He does phenomenal work.

Lorestone, I have a question for you! Does the C10N & the C10NS have the same size 16 ounce magnet? Is the C10NS a higher wattage rating of the C10N? What does the "S" stand for in the C10NS?
Thank you so very very much!

 

[slider313]

Slider...thank you so much for those answers because as much as I searched the internet, I couldn't find any real reasons/answers. Does the C10P & the C10NS have the same size 16 ounce magnet? Also...you mentioned "The C10NS is basically a C10P with the higher wattage rating of the C10N." To clarify...Does this mean that the C10NS had a higher wattage rating than the C10N? What does the "S" stand for in the C10NS?
Thank you so very very much!

VV53, you're welcome. Yes, the C10P and C10NS both have a 16 oz. magnet where a C10N would have a 28 oz. magnet. The C10P was a 20 watt speaker where the C10N was rated @ 25 watts. The C10NS retained the magnet size of the C10P yet had the higher temperature 25 watt voice coil of the C10N. I believe Jensen used the "S" designation, following the model type, to imply a special order.

 

[vintagevette53]

VV53, you're welcome. Yes, the C10P and C10NS both have a 16 oz. magnet where a C10N would have a 28 oz. magnet. The C10P was a 20 watt speaker where the C10N was rated @ 25 watts. The C10NS retained the magnet size of the C10P yet had the higher temperature 25 watt voice coil of the C10N. I believe Jensen used the "S" designation, following the model type, to imply a special order.

Thank you so very much! I really wish that you & some other knowledgeable experts would write a book on this subject or at least the exact breakdown explaining like you did here! Over the years, people are always asking the same questions & getting a lot of confusing misinformation about the Jensen C10N, C10NS, C10P and their part numbers stamped on the rims of these speakers! It would be great if an expert took each and every speaker & explained in detail through actual photos what amplifiers these were in, what years, wattage, voice coils, magnet size & weight and what all the numbers & letters mean. For starters you and tdpri member Lorestone seem to be very knowledgeable in this area of Vintage Jensen Guitar Amplifier Speakers.
Thanks again for all your help on this subject!
Robert

 

[vintagevette53]

Do speaker cone replacements if an expert replaces them change the tone/sound of a vintage 1965,1966 Fender Vibrolux Reverb, Twin, Deluxe, ect ect...? My all original 1965 Vibrolux Reverb has perfect like new original Jensen C10NS cones so I don't need to worry but I always wondered by reading comments on forums that most people say a speaker cone replacement does change the tone/sound? Does anyone have any opinions/thoughts on this subject?

 

[68goldtop]

Hi!

Do speaker cone replacements if an expert replaces them change the tone/sound of a vintage 1965,1966 Fender Vibrolux Reverb, Twin, Deluxe, ect ect...? ... Does anyone have any opinions/thoughts on this subject?

Yes, I do

I´ve had good and bad experiences with re-cones.

I once had a pair of perfectly nice/clean "brown & gold label" Jensen C12Rs shipped to me from the states - and the seller just THREW THEM IN A BOX, with no padding whatsoever
So they rattled around in the box for a couple of thousand miles - and (lucky me!) one was still perfectly good/intact, while the other one had a torn cone.
I had the torn-one re-coned, and they both sounded close to identical!

Then I had a badge (5 or 6...) of early 60´s Jensen C8Rs.
They were all 8 Ohms, and I had two of them re-coned for 4 Ohms - and they sounded NOTHING like they did before.
Before the re-cone they were bright, lively and flat-out gorgeous - after the re-cone they were dull and lifeless.
Not sure what went wrong...

So, I guess it depends on how good/accurate the materials are and how good the re-cones are done...


cheers - 68.

 

[vintagevette53]

^8, thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated! Seems that all the comments that I have read on other forums and internet searches, say that it indeed changes the tone/sound. I read a few comments by others that said their amp sounded better after the re-cones. I think the people who said their amps sounded better, had to do with the fact that their..... 60 year old paper cones in their original vintage amp Jensen Speakers deteriorated and didn't reflect the sound waves as tight as they did when brand new. Sounds logical to me!

 

[Lorestone]

Lorestone, I have a question for you! Does the C10N & the C10NS have the same size 16 ounce magnet? Is the C10NS a higher wattage rating of the C10N? What does the "S" stand for in the C10NS?
Thank you so very very much!

Slider313 knows of what he speaks. As far as the "S" is concerned - I do not know. I've assumed it might mean "Special". I've seen other speaker models with an "S" added, like a C12NS or a P12PS. As you may know, the Fender specific C12N was designated "C12NA".
Concerning recones, I have not encountered any that sounded good - with the notable exception of ones reconed with early Waldom cones. Waldom sourced their cones from the OEM manufacturer, which I understand to be Donal. I have a few Waldom C10N cones that are identical and C10N reconed with them sound amazing - as good as or better than originals. Before that I'd lucked upon a bunch of old Waldom 10 rib rubber edge C12N cones, some of which even had the original Jensen codes crossed our with black marker and restamped with the Waldom WHF number. The one exception to this is that I also came across some 21 rib C12NA cones that the code is not a Waldom number, but the cone sounds identical to the original. Be careful though, there are other 21 rib cones that look identical but do not sound right.

 

[ScottTunes]

Slider313 knows of what he speaks. As far as the "S" is concerned - I do not know. I've assumed it might mean "Special". I've seen other speaker models with an "S" added, like a C12NS or a P12PS. As you may know, the Fender specific C12N was designated "C12NA".
Concerning recones, I have not encountered any that sounded good - with the notable exception of ones reconed with early Waldom cones. Waldom sourced their cones from the OEM manufacturer, which I understand to be Donal. I have a few Waldom C10N cones that are identical and C10N reconed with them sound amazing - as good as or better than originals. Before that I'd lucked upon a bunch of old Waldom 10 rib rubber edge C12N cones, some of which even had the original Jensen codes crossed our with black marker and restamped with the Waldom WHF number. The one exception to this is that I also came across some 21 rib C12NA cones that the code is not a Waldom number, but the cone sounds identical to the original. Be careful though, there are other 21 rib cones that look identical but do not sound right.

.
Could the C12NA be for the Bassman?

I pulled a pair of C12NA drivers from a 1966 Bassman 212 cab, and installed one of those in my '64 Deluxe Rev (still in it). Dunno what became of the other... It also has C8220-3, and what appears to be 023119 stamped on the rim.