(Re)-Naming genres decades after the bands peak

[blowtorch]

And there’s not a country station on the planet that would play George Jones.

I never cared for "the possum" one bit, at all.
There, I said it.
All booze-soaked moan/whine, and not in a good way either, to me
Now there's a guy who shoulda stuck to rockabilly


however, Johnny Cash would never make it today, and neither would Hank Wiliams
and that speaks to me about what a sham country music has become

 

[Hodgo88]

You know, I was at those shows in the 00's too albeit with a slightly more East Coast tinge, a lot of time in Baltimore. Even the promoters didn't know what to do with the various bands. We'd have hardcore kids and metal kids at the same show, sometimes with disastrous results. Guys headbanging in the middle of a circle pit and getting accidentally knocked out, stuff like that.

I personally still don't understand what post hardcore was supposed to be. Or metalcore. Or even nu-metal. I just liked how small, loud, and angry those venues could be.

Classic rock stations like my favorite hometown 93.5 WTPA will play anything from the Rolling Stones to Queens of the Stone Age and everything in between. I think that has an effect on muddying the genres even further.

 

[Buell]

I listen to everything except for the songs I don't like. In other words, genre is a Rolling Stone mag thing that I couldn't care less about.

 

[arlum]

When the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame starting inducting members from genres that had nothing to do with Rock & Roll I wanted to just throw the whole naming thing out the widow. When the still somewhat new Rock & Roll Hall of Fame realized there weren't enough Rock & Roll bands to flesh out an awards programs like their growing business venture would need to draw sponsors and garner network interest they just changed the definitions and rules they worked by. "Screw accuracy. We need numbers. What if we started adding bands and artists from other genres like Country, Jazz, Motown, Fusion, Prog, etc. and just started calling them Rock & Roll? All these other genres have big fan bases and everyone likes to see their favorite whatever get an award". "I don't know boss. People get riled up. If we were to walk up to a group of Country Western fans and tell them we've decided C&W is just another form of Rock & Roll when some of them still can't say the name Chuck Berry and others have Bill Haley targets on the side of their barns well .... I just don't know?" "Um ... same here boss. I got lots of friends that love their Motown and they wouldn't be my friends for long if I told them we decided Motown is just a sub group of Rock & Roll". "Again here boss. When Metallica had their post concert meet & greet last night I never heard the term Rock & Roll come up one single time. I think if I shouted out "Nice job of playing Rock & Roll I could have really gotten hurt."


I'm not a fan of over doing genre naming through the creation of sub types etc. Just the basics with maybe a time reference work for me. Ex. Metal. I consider it all one genre but cave to using Vintage Metal and Modern Metal. Over time Metal changed some but maintained a semblance. Rock. I can see Classic Rock and Hard Rock. Over time one just grew out of the other.

 

[Mike Eskimo]

That was the last good album. After that came the "annoying tunes with terrible production" period.

Yeah, that one recent record of theirs is the textbook definition of “everything in the red all the time”.

I don’t know, but I think I heard a lead single for the upcoming record and I think I liked it? Maybe I saw it on that streaming YouTube charity gig that they did about a month back?

Am I imagining all of this? It sure sounded like old old Metallica.

as long as we're talking tallica, with all respect to ride the lightning (I was lucky enough to see Cliff live) this was their pinnacle

Now that I’ve lost all my upper frequency hearing, I should go back and listen to their old stuff.

When the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame starting inducting members from genres that had nothing to do with Rock & Roll I wanted to just throw the whole naming thing out the widow. When the still somewhat new Rock & Roll Hall of Fame realized there weren't enough Rock & Roll bands to flesh out an awards programs like their growing business venture would need to draw sponsors and garner network interest they just changed the definitions and rules they worked by. "Screw accuracy. We need numbers. What if we started adding bands and artists from other genres like Country, Jazz, Motown, Fusion, Prog, etc. and just started calling them Rock & Roll? All these other genres have big fan bases and everyone likes to see their favorite whatever get an award". "I don't know boss. People get riled up. If we were to walk up to a group of Country Western fans and tell them we've decided C&W is just another form of Rock & Roll when some of them still can't say the name Chuck Berry and others have Bill Haley targets on the side of their barns well .... I just don't know?" "Um ... same here boss. I got lots of friends that love their Motown and they wouldn't be my friends for long if I told them we decided Motown is just a sub group of Rock & Roll". "Again here boss. When Metallica had their post concert meet & greet last night I never heard the term Rock & Roll come up one single time. I think if I shouted out "Nice job of playing Rock & Roll I could have really gotten hurt."


I'm not a fan of over doing genre naming through the creation of sub types etc. Just the basics with maybe a time reference work for me. Ex. Metal. I consider it all one genre but cave to using Vintage Metal and Modern Metal. Over time Metal changed some but maintained a semblance. Rock. I can see Classic Rock and Hard Rock. Over time one just grew out of the other.

Do you believe in using “rock ‘n’ roll” as an adjective? Like “when he did that I that it was really rock ‘n’ roll !

You know, using it like we’ve all used “punk” for years.

That’s where I go when they induct people that aren’t traditionally rock ‘n’ roll like Public Enemy or Dolly Parton.

 

[blowtorch]

since we've got lots of metalheads chiming in here, are you guys familiar with the NWOTHM movement? Being a fan of pre-thrash and pre-cookiemonster vocal metal, i dig a lot of it

What Is NWOTHM? 12 Must-Hear Bands from the New Wave of Traditional Heavy Metal

NWOTHM is an exciting revival of 80s traditional heavy metal music. These 12 bands provide the perfect entry point to the genre

www.prestoncram.com

 

[Doomguy]

I said this on another thread recently (explaining the differences between deathcore and slam) but metalcore isn't even "metalcore" anymore. It's not a mix of metal and hardcore, but it's own specific sound now. Most of it sucks too, with Knocked Loose and Code Orange being interesting exceptions. To me, metalcore will always be bands like Zao, Shai Hulud, Blood Has Been Shed, Racetraitor, etc. Even those second wave melodeath influenced bands like Trivium and Killswitch Engage, I'd lump in.

 

[Mjark]

It all seems very silly to me. People that like to write about Punk seem to claim everyone they like either as or as a precursor.

Its so broad it’s meaningless. I suppose Metal is the same. I don’t listen to it though. The bands that were first described as Metal are just plain Rock Bands now.

 

[drewg]

Not music but I never once heard the term “mullet” in the 80’s when I was sportin’ one. We just called it a ‘soccer cut’. Don’t know who came up with mullet but I didn’t hear it until the 90s. (Admittedly, it’s possible I was out of touch, but then again that was before the internet…)

 

[2HBStrat]

I was reading an article (probably on Loudwire) last night.
It was a list of top X metal core albums from the 90s to early 00s.
I was reading it because some OK metal core bands came through central Ohio back when I was in high-school, wondered if they made the list.
Thing is, metalcore is a sub-genre of hardcore, which itself is technically post-hardcore. It's far from the only subgenre, and was the second or third most popular genre of hardcore in Central Ohio during the early to middle 00s.

So I scroll over the list and it's not just metal core. It's got metalcore, and general hardcore (which is technically post hardcore, but back then we called that badbrains and minor threat hardcore punk).
It's got Poison the Well's Opposite of December as #2. Poison the Well is, to me, THE 00s hardcore band. Even though they were considered Screamo as well. Now other bands, maybe some metal core leanings, but I didn't consider As I Lay Dying metal core then either, and certainly not Avenged sevenfold (who were metal is with hardcore leanings in some songs).

But what do I know. I was there, at the shows, with patches on my jacket, waiting for breakdowns in every song, getting caught by people's fists in the pit....
But I don't write articles, so I guess it's not called what it used to be. When it was happening.

Got me thinking, is this a recent thing?

Bear with me, because what Chuck Berry was playing was called rock n roll instead of just blues while he was "happening".
Nirvana and pear jam got called Grunge while they were "happening".

But, when did Arena rock get called that?
When did motown get lumped together?
Calling Classic Rock thar name was happening by the 90s at least, but I recall radio stations referring to Elvis as "oldies" then too.

It makes sense with yacht rock to be named that later. Or country to get carved out by decade because Shania Twain isn't Conway Twitty, who isn't Steve Earl, who himself isn't Racal Flatts.

But why the heck rename something a decade+ later as another genre? People do it with punk, metal, and apparently now hardcore. What's the bloody point?

Anyone else have examples?

It seems irrelevant, until 2030 hits and we're all reading about how Charlie Pride, Slayer, Hanson, and Deep Purple were all indy power pop acts. It's like the Onion but satire replaces reality.

Metalcore, hardcore, screamo, post-hardcore, hardcore punk...really? Has anyone outside of these "genres" even heard these terms before?

 

[arlum]

Yeah, that one recent record of theirs is the textbook definition of “everything in the red all the time”.

I don’t know, but I think I heard a lead single for the upcoming record and I think I liked it? Maybe I saw it on that streaming YouTube charity gig that they did about a month back?

Am I imagining all of this? It sure sounded like old old Metallica.



Now that I’ve lost all my upper frequency hearing, I should go back and listen to their old stuff.



Do you believe in using “rock ‘n’ roll” as an adjective? Like “when he did that I that it was really rock ‘n’ roll !

You know, using it like we’ve all used “punk” for years.

That’s where I go when they induct people that aren’t traditionally rock ‘n’ roll like Public Enemy or Dolly Parton.

No Sir. I just can't. I'm a huge Dolly Parton fan but would never ever have considered putting her in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. In the same way .... I would blanch at the idea of putting Metallica, Pink Floyd or Funkadelic in the Country Music Hall of Fame. In current times mishmash is becoming a norm. I'm getting old. I need some rocks to lean on.

 

[Snfoilhat]

I saw Poison the Well at the Vero Beach (FL) Women's Center right around the end of high school. I think.
If that's an accurate memory, it was a lot of fun!


I've never liked music journalism or music curating, but I can sympathize with how hard it is to write. Like @ReverendRevolver 's post, I'm sometimes grouping bands across different sounds but holding time constant. I might have listened to Deadguy, Bloodlet, and Earth Crisis, all on Victory Records all around the same time. Different sounds but I could stick a genre label on them, you could book a show with them and it would be cohesive enough I guess.

But some writer, especially with an audience of who-knows who with different experiences and timeless/placeless access to all the internet as an archive, is probably grouping by holding a sound mostly constant and catching bands who begat bands who begat bands through time. And a later band and some language associated with them or their fans or just changing times might retroactively change the label for the older bands associated with them.

I don't know. Nowadays I use the word metalcore to describe any post-hardcore band I dislike whether they deserve it or not
Edit to say: i've become what i hate

 

[Rustbucket]

I’m sure glad we can micro-compartmentalize everything. Thankfully, TDPRI deviates from the “hyper-obsession over telecaster saddle material” and “What defines a Telecaster?” forum genres. Otherwise, it would get pretty boring around here.

 

[Snfoilhat]

Metalcore, hardcore, screamo, post-hardcore, hardcore punk...really? Has anyone outside of these "genres" even heard these terms before?

Great question!

It's inside language, and like the inside jokes or pet names or other little, personal things that get used in a family or other small group, it can be kind of silly. There are lots of comments in this thread calling all the wordy curation of music genre silly.

But one thing to consider for the 'outsider' who's curious: the DIY movement has a feature I think many people don't appreciate: scale. There have been thousands and thousands of bands, records, shows, etc in thousands of towns across the world since (let's just say) 1975, and almost none of those bands or records or shows was more important, "better", than the rest. History and commercialization were two powerful winnowing forces that left us with a sort of official, agreed upon history of country/western or jazz or blues/rock or whatever that gives people a sense that there were 100 great performers and 1000 great records and that's all anyone needs to know. And a person with narrower tastes could get by with even fewer. Of course they know that in any given time there were other bands that weren't great that time forgot, but are comfortable with that arrangement. They were forgettable bands, records, performances.

But with very few exceptions, every darn record put out by every band and every show for 40+ years of DIY music has been roughly the same importance. You could say "zero" or you could say a lot, but it leaves you with thousands and thousands of bands across the world to remember. There's no central authority to anoint the 'best' DIY bands that anyone pays attention to. There's no market forces aggregating a zillion individual choices into a picture of which DIY band 'made it.' So the silly categories may not be as robust as something the library of congress would put together, but some kind of organization has been needful, and that's the one we have

 

[Area51]

I was reading an article (probably on Loudwire) last night.
It was a list of top X metal core albums from the 90s to early 00s.
I was reading it because some OK metal core bands came through central Ohio back when I was in high-school, wondered if they made the list.
Thing is, metalcore is a sub-genre of hardcore, which itself is technically post-hardcore. It's far from the only subgenre, and was the second or third most popular genre of hardcore in Central Ohio during the early to middle 00s.

So I scroll over the list and it's not just metal core. It's got metalcore, and general hardcore (which is technically post hardcore, but back then we called that badbrains and minor threat hardcore punk).
It's got Poison the Well's Opposite of December as #2. Poison the Well is, to me, THE 00s hardcore band. Even though they were considered Screamo as well. Now other bands, maybe some metal core leanings, but I didn't consider As I Lay Dying metal core then either, and certainly not Avenged sevenfold (who were metal is with hardcore leanings in some songs).

But what do I know. I was there, at the shows, with patches on my jacket, waiting for breakdowns in every song, getting caught by people's fists in the pit....
But I don't write articles, so I guess it's not called what it used to be. When it was happening.

Got me thinking, is this a recent thing?

Bear with me, because what Chuck Berry was playing was called rock n roll instead of just blues while he was "happening".
Nirvana and pear jam got called Grunge while they were "happening".

But, when did Arena rock get called that?
When did motown get lumped together?
Calling Classic Rock thar name was happening by the 90s at least, but I recall radio stations referring to Elvis as "oldies" then too.

It makes sense with yacht rock to be named that later. Or country to get carved out by decade because Shania Twain isn't Conway Twitty, who isn't Steve Earl, who himself isn't Racal Flatts.

But why the heck rename something a decade+ later as another genre? People do it with punk, metal, and apparently now hardcore. What's the bloody point?

Anyone else have examples?

It seems irrelevant, until 2030 hits and we're all reading about how Charlie Pride, Slayer, Hanson, and Deep Purple were all indy power pop acts. It's like the Onion but satire replaces reality.

I think the worst of the worst is when they termed "Classic Rock." It seems that's about the time R&R, and all its subdivisions, started fading.

Before this time, I like that radio stations played everything from the latest generation and all the way back. You could also hear harder rock followed by something more mellow like the Beatles. Then after CR there was like a cutoff date and no new music beyond that was played. Even worse was all the stations that gravitated towards CR leaving very (VERY) few that played new rock music. Whatever the variant is or was. After this point most of the new music I found was by digging on the internet and word of mouth.

 

[Dan German]

Genre-fication leads to madness. Not Madness, just madness. My favourite genre name is when someone asked the guys in Leftover Salmon what genre their music was, and one of them said “Poly-ethnic Cajun Slamgrass.” Someday, I would like to genre-fy my own music that well.

 

[Killing Floor]

I never cared for "the possum" one bit, at all.
There, I said it.
All booze-soaked moan/whine, and not in a good way either, to me
Now there's a guy who shoulda stuck to rockabilly


however, Johnny Cash would never make it today, and neither would Hank Wiliams
and that speaks to me about what a sham country music has become

My pants size is about 3 “sizes” larger at Capra & Cavelli than it is at Banana Republic. It’s flattering as a consumer that Banana Republic thinks my waist is the same as it was in high school. But it’s not. And I have a mirror.
Genre naming is just clever marketing. Just like telling me I’m a 31 tall. Try stuffing it all in there and see what sells.

 

[Dave Hicks]

Genre-fication leads to madness. Not Madness, just madness. My favourite genre name is when someone asked the guys in Leftover Salmon what genre their music was, and one of them said “Poly-ethnic Cajun Slamgrass.” Someday, I would like to genre-fy my own music that well.

I often use the Vaguely Celtic genre to label my tracks on Soundcloud.

D.H.

 

[OmegaWoods]

As a wise man once said, “writing about music is like dancing about architecture.”

 

[2HBStrat]

I think the worst of the worst is when they termed "Classic Rock." It seems that's about the time R&R, and all its subdivisions, started fading.

Before this time, I like that radio stations played everything from the latest generation and all the way back. You could also hear harder rock followed by something more mellow like the Beatles. Then after CR there was like a cutoff date and no new music beyond that was played. Even worse was all the stations that gravitated towards CR leaving very (VERY) few that played new rock music. Whatever the variant is or was. After this point most of the new music I found was by digging on the internet and word of mouth.

What kind of "new music" are you referring to? There is a lot of new music played on Top 40 and Country radio channels. If you're referring to more obscure, by today's standards, music, then yes, some digging would be required.