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R. Stratenstein's 2012 Challenge Build Thread -- COMPLETED

Discussion in '2012 TDPRI Tele Build Challenge' started by R. Stratenstein, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Thanks, Roger. I'll be happy with "OK" at this point. Spectacular seems pretty unattainable at this point, but I'm plugging along.
     
  2. Barncaster

    Barncaster Doctor of Teleocity

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    Well Rick,

    If all else fails, there's always veneer! I know, just what you wanted to hear. I've always been impressed with Norton sandpaper but had no idea about the stearates. Now that you mention it, the Norton stuff does feel a little slick. These days I have found myself going to auto paint stores to get really good wet dry Imperial from them. You can bet there is no oily/ soapy crap in that stuff as it is meant for paint applications. Keep going brother, that flame is beautiful! Stay minimal at this point and just finish.There will be time for the full gussie later.

    Barncaster
     
  3. Maricopa

    Maricopa Friend of Leo's

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    Bummer. I can't imagine anything good coming from shellac-in-a-can. Who knows what's in there compared to shellac you make yourself which is alcohol and shellac. Also 25% is a lot of thinner.
     
  4. emoney

    emoney Tele-Afflicted

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    Have you tried shooting a piece of scrap without the sealer? There's a waterproofing
    in there I noticed. Not sure if that's causing an issue, but it wouldn't hurt to try. If
    that's it, you switch to a sanding sealer easy enough.
     
  5. Muzikp

    Muzikp Friend of Leo's

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    Something got on your wood like silicone or something oily, could be the sandpaper but probably not. Do you have any Naptha? If you do scrub it down good with naptha, that should get all the oils or whatever is on the body off. Once you scrub it down respray it. Did you need that much thinner in the mix, seems like a lot. Are you sure it's lacquer thinner or is it some other kind of thinner?

    One other thing is I've had rattle cans actually condensate inside giving this affect. Did the cans sit in the garage and get cold and hot throughout the day/night?

    Still I think you will be fine if you scrub it down with naptha and respray with a lot less thinner - or no thinner at all if it sprays through the preval.

    Good luck R, that body and top is really stunning. It's going to be great.
     
  6. Glen Smith

    Glen Smith RIP

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    Have you used this procedure with success in the past? Just thinking it might have something to do with the propellant in the aerosol lacquer not getting along with the propellant in the Preval.
     
  7. Muzikp

    Muzikp Friend of Leo's

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    I've never used a preval, what do they have as a propellant? I think this is spot on though, I hadn't thought about the propellant in the preval. You never know what you are getting from an aerosol can and I think Glen is on to something.

    Still I'd try again but ditch that lacquer thinner. Will it spray through the preval without thinning it?
     
  8. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Veneer at this late date! Ay-yai-yai ! I would actually consider it actually, except for the pretty aggressive round-over I've made on the back side. I'm going to get that flamed front done right if it kills me! Besides, with the standard you set with your veneer, even if I had unlimited time, I'm not sure I could get close enough to make me happy.

    I'm not saying that the Norton paper has stearates, but I know some papers do, and its soapy stuff, and I'm trying to think of ANYTHING that went wrong. Auto parts store for quality sandpaper is a great idea. I was surprised Sherwin-Williams didn't have anything but the premium, but common papers you can find most places, and nothing finer than about 400.

    You're thinking with the great minds, tho--my wife said, "Instead of staying in a panic, why don't you just get a spray can of nice paint you like? Over that white stuff, it's gonna look like paint anyway." Jeez, hey, I'm supposed to be the expert here, OK, honey? She's right, though, and with your thought on the minimalist approach, I'd only have to sweat the front side, hmmm. . .


    Maricopa, as a test tonight, I mixed up my color coat again, and shot it with the Preval over some test wood, 1/2 with the BIN only, and 1/2 with the Minwax Lacquer Sanding sealer, applied and sanded exactly per directions. Guess which one took an extremely even and level color coat? Yup, the tinted shellac in a can. I couldn't believe it myself. I mean, I thought the Minwax Sanding Sealer would be most compatible with the Minwax rattle can lacquer. (Which I've had excellent luck with, by the way, over Tru-Oil)
    The 25% thinning is as recommended by Preval, however, it occurred to me that since I'm using lacquer out of a rattle can, it's already thinned for spraying, isn't it, and maybe at least part of my trouble is that it's too thin. As a back-up, I am going to Highland Woodworking and getting some of their premium super blonde dewaxed shellac flakes, and color the guitar per the burst instructions in the O'Brien (LMI) video, if I need to, as backup insurance. Also going to Sherwin Williams for some real lacquer and thinner, too.

    Yes, emoney, again, great minds thinking alike--again, talking the thing out with my wife, she asked why I put sanding sealer on top of shellac sealer. My thinking was that so the color coat would be applied directly on to the same undercoat, but as you suggest, maybe it's forming a resistant layer that is not permitting the lacquer to burn into the lacquer sanding sealer properly. But my test tonight showed that the shellac only undercoat made a much smoother, flatter coat with the lacquer than the damn lacquer sanding sealer. Go figure!!:confused::confused:

    Muzikp, at first I assumed that there was something in the BIN shellac spray sealer that was migrating through the lacquer sanding sealer coat on top of it, or maybe stearate lubricant from the sandpaper. But that did not seem to be the case with tonight's test. I have some naptha, and am going to scrub it down, whatever I end up doing. As I mentioned above, I did use 25% thinner, but thought later about that, and how that was likely way too much, and may be the root of my problem. I'm going to test again, but as you suggest, with some quality lacquer and thinner. Colt W. Knight's tutorial he did last summer was done in some really adverse conditions--extremely dry humidity, and very high temps, and he said he's always used hardware-store grade lacquer thinner, and not had any problems with it. Since I'm trying to eliminate every possible cause, I'm going to try and find a good quality lacquer thinner by the mfg. of the lacquer. The closest Sherwin-Williams store didn't stock any, but they told me of another store about 20 miles away that does have some, I'm gonna try there tomorrow.

    I am going to test the Preval with unthinned, but tinted lacquer to see if it will shoot OK. If not, I'll probably have to break out my full spray rig. I had to get another gun, because my old purple HF gun got gummed up and wasn't worth trying to order new parts. I bought a new detail gun on sale, but have never used it, and with time so short, would prefer to not have to get used to a new gun, so I bought the Preval. Should have known that every time you try a shortcut, something suffers.

    So as it stands now, my most probable finishing schedule is to a) Paint the back and sides, probably gloss black, with a rattle can. b) Test shoot some quality lacquer, tinted, over a piece of scrap wood that has the same coating of Minwax Lacquer Sanding Sealer as my guitar body now has. If it does OK, I"m home free, will shoot the front side of the guitar with toned lacquer until I get the color I'm after (deep cherry), then clear coat. c.) If test b above shows problems, sand off Minwax lacquer sanding sealer from top and sides of maple cap. Then either follow the LMI/O'Brien Guitars burst video procedure, or shoot the front with vinyl sealer, per Colt W. Knight's SOP (and great results), then proceed with tinted lacquer, and clear coat.

    I may stick to the damn thing doing the video, but I am determined. . . .:twisted:

    Thanks for the ideas and support, everyone.

    Oh, yeah, I did a little neck work tonight. Finished the nut slot, started laying out the back side of the neck for carving. Neck is to be finished with a little Vintage Amber with Red Mahogany to darken and de=yellow it a bit, then as many coats of Tru-Oil as I can get on before I need to final assemble, string up, and shoot video. I hope I can remember which hand does the strumming and which hand pushes down on the strings. I've been playing power tools instead of guitars for two months now. :rolleyes:

    Rick
     
  9. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I think it's just the standard propane/whatever propellant gasses that most rattle can paints use. I doubt it's any different from the propellant in the Minwax can where the lacquer came from, but the chilling may be a factor, I hadn't thought about. The Preval sucks the finish up from a glass jar under the propellant can, through a plastic tube in the middle of the propellant can, and out the spray tip on top of the spray can. I'm sure it gets quite chilled, as the can is cold to the touch while you spray.

    I'm going to try again without thinning, as I mentioned, the lacquer came out of an aerosol can, so is already thinned for spraying. Mr. Thickhead here did not think of that, and just went by what the Preval instructions said for lacquer. I'm pretty sure it will shoot, and probably well, without thinning, which could be the very thing that corrects this lash-up.

    Thanks for the thoughts and ideas!

    Rick
     
  10. Guitar novice

    Guitar novice Tele-Afflicted

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    Hi Rick,

    Thanks for showing us in detail your finishing process. Like the paint stick idea. I have a piece of mdf but think the pvc is better.

    Sorry I can't help you with some advice but i'm learning lots by watching your thread.

    Cheers
     
  11. alexlaguna29

    alexlaguna29 Tele-Holic

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    Ok, Rick, it's Wednesday already! I'll race you to the finish line! Chop-chop!

    Great work!
     
  12. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Thanks, alex, just visited over at your thread--you're in great shape, a little sanding, some finish, slap in the electtronics and string er up, you're home free.

    I got some more finishing supplies today to take a totally different tack. Ultra blonde shellac is dissolving in the soup tonight, I'm going to tint it and shoot is as color coat, per LMI video's "Luthier Tips Du Jour" on Sunburst finishing. First, I'm going to hog off everything I"ve already put on it. Shouldn't take long with the random orbit sander, only tedious work will be the edges. Figure pop tint should be OK as is.

    Also used Guitarbuilder's excellent tutorial, and Colt W. Knight's video tutorial on neck faceting and carving to good effect tonight. Got a horse rasp like Colt recommended, and man, it does fast work! Got it down to the first facet lines in about half an hour, but I was taking my time and trying to be careful.

    Will post photos as soon as I can.
     
  13. RogerC

    RogerC Poster Extraordinaire

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    Looking forward to the new progress pics, Rick. We've got a horse supply place in town and I'm going to stop by on Saturday and see if they have any of those rasps. I did pretty good on my neck for this buid, but better tools will definitely make the job go more smoothly.
     
  14. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I think the rasp that Colt has is a much nicer, more expensive rasp. He said it's sharp enough to cut you--I guess mine will if you really drag it across a body part hard, but not to the point that I'd consider wearing gloves necessary to protect myself. In his visit, Colt called it a "farrier's rasp, so I asked for a "farrier's rasp" at the hardware store, and they had one labeled "horse rasp"--close enough, I figure. Used to trim the hooves of horses.
     
  15. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Quick Catch-Up

    After last night's non-performance of my internet, and about an hour on the phone with AT&T, they reset my login password:confused: and the ONU--Optical Network Unit, a device which frequently starts to poop out and needs resetting, but it's working OK for now, so I'm going to make hay while the sun shines.

    After watching Robert O'Brien's LMI video about sunburst finishing, I decided to try the shellac-based method. Went and picked up a bunch of supplies, set it all out on my bench:

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    While reading up on this stuff, I discovered that the solvent that dissolves shellac is ethanol, AKA grain alcohol. Some denatured alcohols have a higher percentage of methanol--"wood" alcohol, to denature it, that is, make it unfit to drink. I got some Everclear thinking I could improve the dissolving properties of the alcohol, and more importantly, have something to drown my sorrows if this doesn't work!

    Measured out the right amounts of alcohol, denatured about 60% and pure Everclear about 40% into a one quart glass container, measured out 4 oz. of shellac flakes to make a 1 pound cut. Thin, that will spray easily and flash off quickly.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    It started to dissolve quickly. One set of instructions I found recommended that it be warmed gently by placing the container near a light. You're also supposed to stir or shake it every 15 minutes to keep it from blobbing up in the bottom.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    While waiting for the shellac to dissolve, I transferred the transition contours on the back of the neck, using Tdowns drawings and a piece of carbon paper. Worked pretty good, except I misaligned the transition at the heel of the neck, and will have to rework that a bit.

    [​IMG][/IMG]
    [​IMG][/IMG]
    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Next, while visiting and stirring the shellac every 15 minutes or so, I started working on the neck carving. As I mentioned above, I used Guitarbuilder's excellent turorial on neck faceting, and Colt W. Knight's video tutorial on neck carving. It's wonderful to have giants on whose shoulders we noobs can stand on! Thanks, Guitarbuilder and Colt.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Then I clamped the patient in the operating room, broke out my instruments, and got to work.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Here's the horse rasp I used. Colt recommended using a farrier's rasp, when I asked at the hardware store for one, they gave me what they called a "horse rasp". Gotta be the same thing, I'm thinking.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    It cut fast, and used as Colt recommends, more in a scraping motion than a filing motion, quickly and surprisingly smoothly removes material, without tearing the edges out.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Got the majority of the neck worked down to very near the facet lines with the horse rasp, and cleaned it up a bit with a finer rasp. When the maple figure started reappearing as the surface got smoother, it made me smile! :D Maybe I can get a decent finish on at least the neck.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the shellac was dissolving pretty fast.

    When I left it last night, it was virtually all dissolved, but directions say to let it sit overnight for complete dissolution, so this is how I left it last night.

    I was a bit surprised at the color--it looks more amber than I'd have imagined from the flake color, but this is the lightest shade there is, according to Highland Woodworking, and besides, I don't mind a bit of ambering--it will give my finish a bit of vintage look, I'm thinking.

    It occurred to me when I shot this last photo last night that it looked like the world's biggest urine sample. :eek:
    [​IMG][/IMG]
    Although I don't like undoing stuff, I've decided to hog off all the Minwax Lacquer sealer on the front, and all the BIN and lacquer sealer on the back of the body. The shellac color coats, and a couple of light coats to seal in the color, per the LMI video, will be the sealer over which the lacquer goes.

    I will have an ugly back that's got an unnatural straight line down the middle, one side dark, and one light, but at this stage, I don't have time to try and correct it. It, like the headstock cut, will help remind me to work carefully and slowly on future builds. I don't want to use paint as I originally thought I might, and it also has occurred to me that if time really gets short (if time gets short, hell it's already short) I may just finish it off with shellac, which will dry very fast, and allow for assembly. I plan to stain the neck with alcohol and ColorTone vintage amber, darkened a bit, then Tru-Oil. I like a light coating on the neck, so that won't be a problem.

    To the shop. . . . .

    Thanks for looking,
    Rick
     
  16. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Guitar novice--like you, just about everything I learned about building guitars, specifically Teles, I learned from this website. The flattened PVC for use as a paint stick is an idea I got from the Stew-Mac website, one of the finishing articles Dan Earlewine did there. It seemed like a good idea to me--lighter than most wood you could use for the purpose, etc.
     
  17. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Made Good Progress Yesterday

    Took Friday off so I could have some uninterrupted shop time, and got a bit done.

    Here's a shot of the label of the shellac flakes I was using. Not cheap--$39 bucks, but good stuff is expensive. I'd never heard of "platina" shellac, "Super blonde" is the lightest I'd heard of, but next to it on the store shelf, platina was much, much lighter, and when I asked about it, the guy at HW said it was the lightest, purest grade they could get.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    After an overnight soak in the hooch, the flakes were completely dissolved, but I figured I'd better strain it anyway. Just a few very tiny bits of something came out in the strainer.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    The bridge placement thing was still nagging me at the back of my mind, so I decided to do a "full mockup", with everything but the bridge pickup and the electronic controls in place.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Not the best shot to show it, but the bridge is slightly cocked to the right, as you're facing the guitar. I was relieved, Cuz, I realized the pickguard unites the whole damn thing, any one component that's out of place will screw up everything. I can fix the bridge pretty well by filing the screw slots slightly elongated on opposite sides of the two bridge ends.

    Since I also have the white pickguard, I mocked it up, too, but at this point, think I like the black better. I might change my mind after the guitar gets finished red, but for now, the black with white border is #1.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    I assembled the pressure regulator and water/oil trap to the new little detail spray gun I got at HF. I'm not at all impressed with the pressure regulator. The threads were off just enough to not fit well on the gun, so I had to assemble it with the filter next to the gun, then the regulator. Oddly enough, although the threads seemed the same, this order of assembly worked just fine. The regulator didn't work very well. It crapped out right in the sweet spot for sprayers, between about 30 and 50 PSI. It would adjust to 60, or drop immediately down to 10 or so, with a Phhht, and spitting of the gun. As a consequence, I had to spray at 60 PSI, too high, and try and adjust technique, which is none too good anyway, to compensate for the pressure. Like with the $39 shellac flakes, you get what you pay for. I also wonder if it might have worked better if I'd been able to assemble the thing in the order I wanted to--with the regulator right at the gun.
    [​IMG][/IMG]
    The gun, on the other hand, was a joy, and just right for what I wanted to use it for. At proper pressures, I think it would be a really nice tool.

    After a bit of practice with the gun, using solvent to also clean it, I felt ready to get to work.

    Sanded off the sealer and tinted shellac front and back, and raised the grain with a bit of water.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Fine sanded by hand when the machine sanding was done to 320, and wiped the thing off with Naptha.

    Mixed up some shellac with cherry red ColorTone, and a couple drops of black in there to darken it. Hopefully, that will help even out the color discrepancies in the back. Tested on a poplar offcut from the same piece as the guitar came from

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Added a couple more drops of black--think I'll call the color "black cherry" cause it wasn't as dark as I'd hoped, but did help even out the colors of the poplar. The heavier color band at the bottom of the board is where I just hosed the shellac on, to see how much I could get on until it caused problems.


    [​IMG][/IMG]

    I did not get any photos of the color going on the back, but it turned out well, I thought. Color is just where I wanted it to be.

    Hung it inside to dry, and went back to work on the neck.

    I made a new holder for it, just a 2X4 on edge, held in the vise, padded with some styrofoam under the fretboard, some tape-padded pieces of tapered wood shims under the peghead face, and clamped on each end with some Quick=Clamps.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Shaping went pretty well with the horse rasp rough, then fine sides, switched to some finer rasps, then files, and finally increasing grades of sandpaper fineness. In this photo, I'm working on some "shoeshine" action with 60-grit. With the bottom of the neck not yet abraded, and showing dirty from handling and exposure to ebony dust, looks kind of like a skunk stripe. I briefly flirted with the notion of a "faux skunk stripe", but decided against it. No time, plus, I'm not completely sure how deep the truss rod is in there. I do NOT want to dig that up with a router bit.

    One caution I'd pass along is to be very conservative with the heavy cut portion of the horse rasp, and switch over to finer-cut tools when you're still well away from your facet lines. I had two places where I'd gouged deeper than I wanted to, and could not sand the neck down enough to get rid of them (without making a ukelele neck, that it.), So my learning moment is take it easy with the heavy rasping. It's a great tool to get quick progress, but don't overdo it.

    Went up in the yard to do some chore for my wife, and found this. You can see it hanging in front of the guitar:

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Our resident black rat snake has affirmed his presence again this year. He's been living under the driveway slab, in a section that had some subsidence under it, for almost 5 years now. I've seen him several times, and actually managed to catch him twice, although he's fast, and will reward you for grabbing him with a very aggressive bite. He's learned to avoid us, but he is still there, and about 2X a year, we'll find his shed skin somewhere. He freaked out my wife one year by shedding his skin next to her car in the garage. We usually keep the garage door down now.

    That's a yardstick in the last photo. I measured the skin with a tape and it's a full 50 inches, and the tail section of the skin is missing. I'm pretty sure he'd go 6 feet long. With him around, we never see any rodents, and fewer toads than we used to see in the yard. I just like knowing he's around, doing his little bit in Mother Nature's big plan.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    When the red shellac had fully dried, it had some roughness to it, especially on the back of the guitar. I decided to smooth it out with a bit of light sanding. Unfortunately, I hadn't realized just how thin a coat it was putting on, and really lightened up some edges that will have to be re-done.

    That done, it was time to mask, and do the front. I did not use any black in the color, but a couple of extra drops in the red, 1/2 oz. of dye in 1 pint of shellac, the maximum allowable per label directions. I was quite pleased with the results.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Because it was later in the afternoon, I had to rig up a "booth" to keep the sun off of the spray area. This made it darker, so I put a light out there to illuminate my work.

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    I also touched up the edges where I'd "whitened" the finish by sanding. Not sure how well that worked. Masking tape made a definitive line, and since the colors aren't exactly the same, you could see a line. One spot I couldn't figure out why no matter how much I sprayed, you could still see the line, until I realized I was seeing a line between the darker green and white poplar wood. May need some more sanding and re-applying. Hope not.

    Brought it in to dry, and got to work on the neck. I mixed up a weak dye solution of Vintage Amber and a couple drops of Reddish Brown in alcohol. Achieved the figure pop I was looking for. The alcohol dries so fast, that by the time I found the Tru-Oil and steel-wooled off the fuzz that the dye made, it was ready to start oiling. Really started to pop the grain.
    [​IMG][/IMG]

    By the second coat, the chatoyance was starting to come back, along with the figure
    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Now, it's back to the shop.

    Thanks for looking,
    Rick
     
  18. Allthesound

    Allthesound Tele-Afflicted

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    Wow nice work! I love that red! If you catch that snake he might make a cool guitar strap. :p:twisted:
     
  19. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Thanks, Steve. That snake has wised up over the years, and makes himself pretty scarce, I haven't seen him in a couple of years, so I think his skin is pretty safe, at least for now!
     
  20. rcole_sooner

    rcole_sooner Poster Extraordinaire

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    Some more flamey goodness. Man, that TO makes that neck look good.
     
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