Questions about applying lacquer over Z-Poxy

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by Yonatan, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. Yonatan

    Yonatan Tele-Meister

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    Looking for some advice. I'd like to finish my first parts build, but many of the products usually discussed on the forum are not available in Israel and I doubt that they ship internationally, so it's hard for me to apply a lot of the information that I read here.

    I searched Israeli forums and found a post by a guitar builder who tried many of the locally available lacquers and determined that (for him at least) the Zweihorn product "Holzlasur 2000" gave the best results. As far as I can tell, this is an oil based semi-gloss tinted lacquer (poly based) that comes in various tints (thinned with turpentine). The more layers that are applied, the darker the color. The author of the post very kindly described in great detail his complete finishing process for wiping it on, sanding between layers, polishing with micro polish cloth, etc.

    So, I would like to just follow those instructions (with the same exact product), but here's my question: In his process, for the first layer onto bare wood, he describes brushing on a generous amount of lacquer, then sanding it down when it is fully hard, as a form of leveling/pore-filling. However, we established here in a different post that the wood of my body very open-grained, and I don't know if his method will cut it.

    So I got hold of a container of Z-Poxy to use for pore-filling.

    How should I proceed?
    Skip the Z-Poxy and follow his method exactly (brush on generous first layer that gets sanded down when hard)?
    Or first Z-Poxy to pore-fill/level, then continue with his wipe-on process (skipping the first layer)?Will applying tinted lacquer over Z-Poxy affect the color e.g. the color can't be absorbed into the wood, due to the Z-Poxy, right?

    I don't have scrap wood of the same kind as the body to practice on.

    Also, what about covering the binding? I assume that I apply the lacquer right over it, but what about when I apply the Z-Poxy?
     
  2. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    It would be good to know what wood you have. But....given that you say it is an open-pore wood like ash and mahogany are and if you want to use this Zpoxy; I would suggest that you prep the wood for finishing....sand to appropriate fineness. Then do a wash coat of the Z proxy....thin it with maybe double the turpentine that is suggested for finishing. Or...use lacquer thinned a great deal. After the wash coat is dried, use a pore filler of the appropriate color. Sand and check that the pores are filled. If so, then proceed with the Zpoxy as directed.
    As for how lacquer will react to being applied over the Zpoxy, I would suggest using any scrap of wood of similar color to get a feel for how the two products interact.
    And...you would not want to apply tinted lacquer on the binding....tape the binding off for the color coats. Remove binding, smooth any edges if there are any, and apply clear coat lacquer.
     
  3. DrASATele

    DrASATele Poster Extraordinaire

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    I doubt the poly you talk about will be 1 coat to fill the pores, not even a heavy coat, it would likely take a few.
    I'd do the zPoxy and then that poly stuff you talked about. But do regular coats, like you said don't go heavy on the first.
    No worries about the color penetrating the wood at least from your description of the poly it sounds like it is a tinted top coat. Just apply it over the zpoxy as long as the zpoxy is dry.
     
  4. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Tele-Afflicted

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    I can only tell you what I have actually done and speculate on the rest. I have used Z-poxy for my pore filler on a number of guitars that were finished either with solvent based nitrocellulose lacquer or one of several kinds of "water born" lacquers (mainly something called KTM-9). I have no experience with any other products.

    http://www.tdpri.com/threads/zpoxy-for-pore-fill-and-grain-enhancement.940522/

    As described in that thread, I sand the Z-poxy level with the wood and then apply one more coat highly diluted with DA that is not sand. I then apply either a lacquer sealer (vinyl modified lacquer) or a couple of very dilute coats of the lacquer itself, then on to build coats. Others seem to do basically the same thing, I have posted links to Robbie O'Brien and others, but I've also been told this is totally wrong. I simply know that for me it works.

    The main water born product that I have used was at one time sold by LMII and used by a number of luthiers who I respect, it has kind of disappeared from the market. I have heard of people hand applying KTM-9, I've have done that for touch ups but I normally sprayed it. I liked almost everything about it except that I did get witness lines when I sanded between coats.

    I don't know anything about poly finishes or anything else. My caution would be to experiment, ideally on scrap of your wood but if thats not possible get something close. I have no idea how well it will bond, whether you will get color shifts or anything else. I am somewhat curious what nitrocellulose lacquer is not available in Israel - I thought it was a pretty universal finish.

    My experience with trying to use lacquer itself as the pour filler is that with enough coats and enough sanding it sort of works, but the way lacquer shrinks back as it dries it doesn't do a very good job. The only way you'll know if your product will fill the pores is to try it on porous wood. Remember too that there are lots of other pore filling products besides Z-poxy, you might find something more compatible with your product.

    Sorry I can't be more help. I use Z-poxy and like it but my experience is very limited. Good luck, looking forward to seeing what you do.
     
  5. Yonatan

    Yonatan Tele-Meister

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    Thanks everyone for chiming in. Just to clarify, should I tape off the binding for the Z-Poxy, or only for the tinted lacquer coats? Maybe tape off, since the Z-Poxy should get sanded back anyway from everything except the pores?
     
  6. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Meister

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    If your goal is to achieve total pore fill/glassy smooth, then definitely use the Z-poxy, you could even use a squeegee diagonally on the first coat. Sand back all the way to the wood after it cures and do a second coat for good measure. If you sand the 2nd coat to flat, it shouldn't take as many coats of the poly to finish.

    I would advise against masking the binding. If you build very many coats you will have a visible ledge when you take off the tape (you might need to score the finish at the joint to get the tape off) and then will need to build a clear finish up on the binding to the same level as the body. It's a tedious job with a small brush. If you're using an amber tint finish on the body, a few coats won't darken the binding that much, might just look "vintage".

    The oil-based poly will not burn in or adhere to itself, so you will need to scuff sand between coats to get adhesion. Also, consult the luthier who's used it about the total cure time for that finish. How long must you wait for it to be totally cured before you can do the final sand out/buff/polish? Post some picks for us as you get into the process. Happy finishing!
     
  7. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    do you have a link to English product data and MSDS (Safety Data) sheets for the product? The description you give sounds more like oil-based paint than lacquer; if it does use lacquer resins it will be a VERY slow dry product, as lacquers dry only by evaporation - and turpentine evaporates over hours instead of minutes like most lacquer solvents.

    It's difficult to even guess how to apply an unknown product over Z-poxy.
     
  8. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Tele-Afflicted

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    With wood binding and Z-poxy I apply the finishing resin to the binding and any purfling - if its wood I want to pore fill and pop any grain. On plastic binding I tape the wide face (side) with 1/4 inch masking tape from an automotive paint store, I scrape the small edge. If I'm applying color in my lacquer I leave the tape in place and scrape it when the color coats are all on. I then shoot 6 or 8 or more coats of clear - that always covers the little step created by the tape. I've also learned to scribe around the edge of the tape with an Xacto knife before pulling it to lessen the chance the tape will pull up any finish.
     
  9. Yonatan

    Yonatan Tele-Meister

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    I might not be describing the product correctly, it's definitely sold as a lacquer:

    The post that I found on the Hebrew forum states (I'm translating, "this is an oil-based poly lacquer thinned with turpentine"

    The safety information that I found for HL 2000 describes it as, "White spirit, alkyd resin, transparent iron oxide pigments, additives, fungicidal active ingredients" (So I'll have an anti-fungal Tele :))
    https://translate.google.com/transl...%20HL%202000_20090213_Murexin.pdf&prev=search

    Regarding drying time, I think your right. I used the stuff once on a pine shelf and I thought that it dried very quickly but I was working outside in the hot sun, and on the instructions that I found in English it says 16 hour drying time (also that it can be thinned with "white spirit")
    https://www.eurotechnica.gr/photos/files/hl_2000farbton_te.pdf

    Also the OP (on the Hebrew forum) stated that he waits 12 hours in between wiping on coats (with light sanding in between)
     
  10. dkmw

    dkmw Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I think the epoxy will do a good job of sealing and providing you a workable surface to achieve 100% flatness that you want before applying the finish coats. Like most of us, I’m not familiar with that exact finish product.

    I’ve considerable experience (outside of guitars) with applying finishes over epoxy. It’s friendly to almost anything if it’s keyed a little. In other words, don’t sand it it out above 320 (180 or 220 is as far as I would go) so the finish can get some mechanical grip.

    The epoxy is going to warm up the wood color by itself. If you have the time, you might want to do the epoxy first before you decide on tint for the finish product.

    I also think you should check into thinning with something faster-drying than turpentine. IOW, check into that white spirit and see if it evaporates faster than turpentine.
     
  11. Yonatan

    Yonatan Tele-Meister

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    Thanks for sharing your experience.

    In general this lacquer is meant to be ready to use, so I might not need to thin it with anything. Though maybe since I'll be wiping it on, and it's meant for brushing on, I'd want to dilute it slightly? The PDF i mentioned above states "Zweihorn Holzlasur 2000 is ready for immediate use. If required and for the cleaning of the tools use white spirit." But he Israeli product page refers to "turpentine." I'll have to check what products are available here - from my experience at the hardware stores here, they just refer to such products as "thinner" (whatever that might be).
     
  12. schmee

    schmee Poster Extraordinaire

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    The only thing I know about epoxy is you must sand it prior to coating. Finishes don't normally bond to it once hard and it takes a "mechanical" bond created by roughing up the finish to work well.
     
  13. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Meister

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    Just to clarify the semantics involved here: On this side of the pond, oil based polyurethane and lacquer are very different species. Lacquer is the term we use for nitrocellulose lacquer, which is spirit-based and thinned and cleaned up with acetone. Quite toxic and requires a carbon filtered respirator when spraying (which maybe why it's not available to you in Israel). It was the finish used back during the classic era of electric guitars before poly's and catalyzed finishes were invented. It's not as durable as poly and it cracks and crazes when it gets really old. These days it's mostly used for very high end boutique acoustic guitars and a few electric guitar folks who like the feel of a lacquer finished guitar. It's most enduring property, particularly when sunbursting, is that it melts into the coat underneath it with out any in between sanding for a mechanical bond.

    Way more info than you need since you won't be using it, but now you know what the purists over here are talking about when they refer to a lacquer finish.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  14. Yonatan

    Yonatan Tele-Meister

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    I really appreciate the clarification, I just went and checked the Israeli product page, and it doesn't actually use the term lacquer at all! It refers to this product as a "coating." And the German name of the product (Holzlasur) apparently comes from the German word lasur, which also means coating or glaze. I think I called it a lacquer because that's what the guy in the hardware store said :) So I've just learned about the importance of using correct terminology.
     
  15. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    OK, let me sum this up for you (I apologize for the weird font changes - they just happened and I can't fix them!):

    The product you have is an oil-based enamel PAINT. It's not normally used as a guitar finish as it lacks solvent resistance, abrasion resistance, impact resistance and color retention when compared to commonly-used lacquers and polyurethanes. From everything in the MSDS and final, clarified description - it's house paint. It contains NO polyester or polyurethane resins, and alkyd resins alone can't make anything more than simple door trim enamel. Or something you'd paint a primed metal shelf with.

    It will, IMO (based on decades working in the industry) NOT adhere well to Zpoxy. It might get a bit of "mechanical adhesion" (physically grabbing the surface) with fairly aggressive sanding of the ZPoxy ( 220 - no smoother) but will have no "chemical adhesion" - and that is the most critical bond for any enamel if the underlying primer or sealer creates a hard surface. If it can't chemically bond to the molecules of the ZPoxy adhesion will be compromised.

    But apart from adhesion it simply will not have the long term durability needed for a guitar finish, will tend to stick to rubber or plastic guitar stands, the color will be easily affected by many cleaners and guitar polishes/fretboard oils. I'm not even sure it will hold up very well in the short term. In my experience it's just the wrong product for a guitar.

    And I would not use ANY brushing finish in a color. It will be virtually impossible to sand smoothly and polish, quickly loading the paper and "gumballing" the finish.

    I suggest trying to find an actual polyurethane or solvent-based lacquer in aerosol form only - polyurethane will be easier to apply but lacquer can generally get a smoother, glossier finish. However, lacquer will require multiple products. A polyurethane will make the job a bit easier, if not quite as nice.

    Whichever you use, PRACTICE ON SCRAP WOOD FIRST! Apply ZPoxy and then the complete system including final buffing. DO NOT continue to work on the guitar until you have worked out the techniques and materials on practice wood!!!!!

    I hope that helps.
     
  16. Yonatan

    Yonatan Tele-Meister

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    O.k., so I'll need to rethink this, or at the very least test on scrap.

    I didn't mention earlier that the guy who uses this stuff does the final coats with a product by the same company (Zweihorn) called "Yacht Gloss Varnish" which is described on the product page as "Clear polyurethane based lacquer for wood."

    So that would address the question about durability, but not the question about adhesion of the underlying tinted stuff.
     
  17. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Wow - they throw the "kitchen sink" of generic coatings terminology into their product descriptions!

    Feel free to PM me with data and MSDS for that finish coat iff you don't want to continue the thread, which seems to really be focused on an unusual, geographically-limited situation. I can double check the actual product type for you.
     
  18. warrent

    warrent Friend of Leo's

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    It's listed as Solvent based decorative silk Glaze

    The website link is broken but it's on this page:
    https://www.zweihorn.com/en/product...=99999&cHash=da4ccf301f08fd5248e045e5b5b69aeb

    And here's the only English PDF I could find
     

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  19. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    the link does not work.

    But regardless, from the critical information on the technical data and MSDS it appears to me that pigmented versions ware basic oil base enamels (that's what an "alkyd resin" - with no urethane or nitrocellulose resin listed with it - indicates) and the clear - due to the "silk" term - appears to be a low to semi gloss oil based varnish - and one with no ultraviolet light resistance. So used over colors it WILL result in color changes depending on the type of light exposure.

    Unfortunately there is no "legal requirement" for terminology in most coatings marketing materials, so "lacquer" gets tossed around like a beach ball.e "urethane" much less so, because it has VERY specific meanings - but still, without an industry standards for terms, you can be easily confused.

    These products are not lacquers and are not polyurethanes or polyesters. They are not normally used as guitar finishes because the durability, solvent resistance and other properties do not result in a long-lasting guitar finish.

    I would try to find professional wood finishers in the region and ask for product recommendations. There HAVE to be some types of lacquers and/or polyurethanes available.
     
  20. Yonatan

    Yonatan Tele-Meister

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    I just want to restate my last comment (it's my fault for not stating it at the beginning), the finishing process im referring to uses a different product as the top coats (Yacht Gloss Varnish by the same German company "Zweihorn") and though I couldn't find any information on about it online, it's clearly marked as Polyurethane based on the can, and it's meant specifically to go over the other stuff that I referred to, the semi transparent "non lacquer."
     
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