Question about strange DCR reading on Fender CS 51 Nocaster neck p/up

Discussion in 'Just Pickups' started by theprofessor, Mar 25, 2020 at 12:10 PM.

  1. Tone Specific

    Tone Specific TDPRI Member Vendor Member

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    This is true. A lot of folks talk about hand-winding & scatter-winding but nobody talks about tension. It’s one of the most important aspects in our opinion. More specifically, varied tension.

    This is why we don’t use auto-feeders, you can’t vary the tension as needed. Sure it would make life easier to set and forget an auto feeder into an auto winder like the mass producers but in our opinion the ability to vary the tension is key.

    The first winder we ever heard talk about variable tension was the late David White of Old Glories.
     
  2. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    I can't believe the scatter winding BS is still being peddled. This is like bottled water. How to make basic water seem more special than it is... hmm, let's say it came from an artesian well. Let's say it came from the glaciers of Mt Fiji.
     
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  3. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

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    I always enjoy your excellent work giving specs on pickups. It's your conclusions that bother me, or perhaps just how they're stated. Diameter of the wire makes a difference. I can hear 43 vs 42. You can hear the difference in coil shape. And you can hear the difference in normal vs overwound coils. So logically 2 coils the same size 42 and 43, one is normal, one is overwound. They sound different. Two coils 42 and 43 the same number of windings will be differently shaped. So they sound different.
    Years ago I wound some coils w those old Radio shack 3 packs of different gauge magnetic wire. Using different spools I wound coils the same size. Then boosted each w different gains so they gave the same output. All were flat eq wise, but the bigger the wire the airyer it sounded.
     
  4. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    With all due respect, a double blind test would be required to say with scientific accuracy that they you do hear the difference.

    Bad science is being given too much credence, while known science, about basic concepts like permeability and induction, is given too little, if any at all.
     
  5. Tone Specific

    Tone Specific TDPRI Member Vendor Member

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    Pickups can be as simple or as complex as the maker chooses make them. It easy for someone who isn’t in the competitive business of producing pickups to say it’s just cheap wire wrapped around cheap magnets.

    If you are in this business of making pickups, then you realize that you’d better make something special if you want repeat customers. With so many guys eager to quickly and make you a set for cheap, you have to deliver the goods in terms of tone. This means you have to put a lot of thought and R&D into each design.

    In a Strat set, you have 18 magnets. Knowing which magnet to use in each slot and how to treat that magnet is important. The Wire you choose and when and how you apply tension also matters. Get it right & people will tell their friends, send you videos, post on social & order more sets. Get it wrong and they are gone forever.

    On a PAF set, you’ve got a total or 12 screws and 12 slugs. Using different alloys for different designs or even within the same pickup will change the end tonal result. Then you’ve got the magnet(s), how you treat them and the bridge/neck combo you choose. The covers and the other parts matter too, as does the tension and if/how you might choose to mismatch coils. Get it right & people will tell their friends, send you videos & order more sets. Get it wrong and they are gone forever.

    On top of that you better make them reliable. If your customers are touring the world, they can’t be afraid their pickup will fail in the middle of a solo while in stage all the in Australia or Japan.
     
  6. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    That's magical thinking. You're basically describing yourself as some sort of wizard. You can have a process that is as convoluted as you like, but in the end you've still created a material good that conforms to the principles of physics. I'd say the same about distilleries, who try to act as though they too are like wizards, with their special water and special hops.

    With all due respect, I don't like having my efforts diminished, either.

    I've made a few pickups; it's very boring and I genuinely wonder why anyone would do it for fun. In an interview with Abby Ybarra, she had said or implied that the reason she was the pickup queen at Fender was because she was the only one who had the patience to do it. The other Latina women would get bored with it. So the fact that people make pickups, I'm not real moved by it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020 at 3:35 PM
  7. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    yep. as Bill Lawrence would drill into those of us he put up with, "DCR is about as important as the color socks the guitarist is wearing.." It is ONLY good as a continuity test...


    while true.. still the bottom line is, it doesn't matter how complex the pickup's design is.. If "you" don't care for the sound,.. they suck...

    that is actually a concept Arlo West, myself and a few others convinced Bill Lawrence of... His philosophy was if the math was not correct, the sound could not be.... completely ignoring someone's preference...

    He was so convinced of that .. he was going to discontinue all other pickups he made because the Microcoil was so "perfect"... We finally convinced him.. It's not perfect if someone doesn't like it, however they MAY choose something else listed on your site ...

    Ya didn't win many discussions with Bill, but that's one that we got the W on.. as a result, Becky is still offering a lot of really great pickups.. :p

    r
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020 at 3:48 PM
  8. Tone Specific

    Tone Specific TDPRI Member Vendor Member

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    Nothing magical about it. It’s a passion and a lot of hard work.
     
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  9. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    Passion and hard work still can't defy the laws of physics. And it's all pulled straight from the marketing mumbo jumbo lexicon. You can say youre doing more than wrapping wire around a magnet, but take a step back and look at what youre doing, youre wrapping wire around a magnet.
     
  10. Tone Specific

    Tone Specific TDPRI Member Vendor Member

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    Just like a chef just cooks a meal.
     
  11. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    Even a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is infinitely more complex than a pickup, from the nature of thing itself, to how it came to be.

    Well your rhetoric game is strong, that much is plain to see.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020 at 3:55 PM
  12. Tone Specific

    Tone Specific TDPRI Member Vendor Member

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    This pretty much sums it up. If you want discuss pickups & give the OP some additional information/ opposing views, I’m happy to help. If your goal is to tear others down to make you feel better about yourself, then we are happy to be your punching bag but we won’t roll around in the dirt with you.
     
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  13. Danb541

    Danb541 Tele-Meister

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    A pickup makers take on scatter wound.
     
  14. Tone Specific

    Tone Specific TDPRI Member Vendor Member

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    Wise words. I heard that before & have repeated it a few times.
     
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  15. Tone Specific

    Tone Specific TDPRI Member Vendor Member

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    So true, designing something for the sake of being complex would be silly. I’ve heard some complex pickups that didn’t sound so great . I’ve also had more than a few complex designs not pan out during the R&D process. It can be quite humbling.
     
  16. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    This has been posted before a few times. His theory is correct, space does reduce capacitance, but what he's wrong about is the reality, the capacitance doesn't drop enough to matter. A Strat pickup always shows about 80pF to 130pF capacitance, no matter how it's wound. Either way, it's a small amount of capacitance.

    Capacitance is caused by electrical fields, the desire of positive and negative charges to attract, and this attraction happens over any distance to infinity. One form of EMF is nothing more than capacitance occurring over a long distance. Therefore, it's not merely the turn-to-turn proximity that causes capacitance, but the proximity of the whole coil with respect to itself. The reason a Strat pickup's capacitance is always at least 80pF is because of the geometry of the bobbin, which says that some portion of the coil will always be a give distance away from the rest of it. Scatter winding can't change that basic geometric reality. Jazz Master pickups always have a lower capacitance because the flat coils is more spread out, while Tele neck bobbins have a higher capacitance because they're less spread out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020 at 5:10 PM
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  17. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    I'd say it's the pickup makers who've brought all the mud to the party, with talk about scatter winding, "vintage recipes", their special sauces, the pickup maker's secrets, all "muddying the waters" so to speak, supplanting knowledge with make believe.

    If I were to make tone specific pickups, I'd just make the same pickup and use it for everything, because that's what Fender and Gibson did, and that's what everyone seems to love. But maybe you do just make the same pickup for everything, you post no specs, so we will never know.
     
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  18. theprofessor

    theprofessor Friend of Leo's

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    This has been drilled into our heads again and again here at TDPRI, and yet it is one of the primary data points that both companies and individuals list as a kind of short-cut to helping folks know what the pickup might sound like, given that it's made out of certain materials. So: Here's another call for vendors to list turn count in addition to DCR, or maybe even instead of it!
     
  19. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    Multi-meters are cheaper than LCR meters unfortunately, and I think that's the main problem. An LCR meter is like a "secret decoder ring" for pickups, but even at $80, that's still more than most guitarists want to spend.

    If you make pickups on the other hand, an $80 meter is probably the cheapest piece of purposes specific equipment in the shop, so they should have them, but as present company demonstrates, informing consumers is not necessarily the winning-est strategy in the market place.
     
  20. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    the DCR has absolutely NO consistent predictable bearing on the sound of the pickup.. it is ONLY a measurement of the piece of wire, which is about 1 mile long...

    The reason companies, including me.. list the DCR is to eliminate answering all the emails asking.. and explaining anything. relative to it... that is it..

    fact is., none of the metrics of the pickup can predict what it will sound like in a guitar, simply because it's only one of the many factors contributing to the sound... it would be like stating specifically what the sod pottage will taste like when a carrot is added, if the carrot is X long x Y diameter...

    Why?? what do you expect that information to reveal about the pickup... how about the gauss of the magnets, the diameter, the length??

    r
     
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