Question about Les Paul style bridge assembly

[toonskeez]

Hi,
This is in relation to this guitar build:

Will gluing in some mahogany blocks of wood change guitar tone?

I know this may sound like wishful thinking, or crazy talk, but in my next guitar build, I was thinking of gluing (what I think is) a genuine block of mahogany wood right under where the bridge will screw in, in the hope that it might impart some tonal qualities to the overall tone of the...

www.tdpri.com

I'm closing in on the finish line on this build, but I have a question about the bridge assembly. As I'll be using a Les Paul vintage style bridge and tailpiece assembly and have never tone this type of bridge before, I want to make sure I'm approaching it correctly. I've searched d'interweb to answer my questions but can't find solutions specific enough for my situation.
I wanted to go all vintage correct, so I went with all Faber parts:

ABRM-BA ABRM Bridge, Fits 4mm studs, Aged Nickel, Brass saddles natur, 57,00 €

Faber® ABRM Bridge: For 4MM metric bridge posts (most imports and Faber® ESWKIT or E-Sert) Perhaps the most vintage correct replacement bridge available on

www.faberguitar.com

ST-MNA-B Faber 4mm metric, '59 ABR Brass! Studs and Brass! Thumbwheel, 18,00 €

4mm, '59 ABR Studs and Thumbwheel Kit (pair) GERMAN BELL BRASS, nickel plated, aged For those desiring a more simple installation and enhancing the resonan

www.faberguitar.com

TP-59NA Faber TP-'59 Vintage Spec ALU Stop Tailpiece, Nickel, aged, 40,00 €

„Faber®“ Aluminum Tailpiece Correct Vintage Style It is an extremely lightweight, nickel-plated tailpiece, available in a glossy polished version or in “age

www.faberguitar.com

TPST-MNA Vintage style tailpiece studs, aged nickel, METRIC, 23,00 €

1 x pair, '59 Vintage style tailpiece studs, Metric, nickel aged Exact same '59 dimensions and specs; except we do use German steel No bending guaranteed

www.faberguitar.com

TPI-A-MNA Faber, 8mm metric Tailpiece Inserts (pair) Steel, nickel pl, 17,00 €

TPI-A-MNA, 8mm, Metric Tailpiece Inserts (pair) German Carbon Steel, nickel plated, aged inner thread: 8mm, Metric outer diameter: 13mm length: 22mm (origin

www.faberguitar.com

The stop piece section seems fine as far as I can tell, but regarding the bridge / studs & thumb wheels section, I have a few questions:
I'm pretty sure I drill two 3mm holes for the bridge studs, but how exactly am I supposed to screw them into the body? There's no way for a screw driver to screw the studs. I'd expect you to be able to use a flat head screw driver on these, but there's not notches on the for studs for this purpose.
The only way I can see how I'd screw them down, would be to super glue the thumb wheels to the studs (far down enough so that the top of bridge would be flush with top of studs when bridge is sitting on thumb wheels) and screw the studs down by turning the thumb wheels, but that just doesn't seem like the correct solution to me. I guess I could file a notch on each of the studs to accept a screw driver, but again, these parts are pricey, so whey would they leave it to the customer to do this?
Also, when the bridge sits on the studs and thumb wheels, there's a small bit of wiggle, not a huge amount, but a little and enough to worry me that it could cause possible intonation issues and other possible issues. Is there a remedy to this? I was thinking a thin metal tube that could fit into this gap might work.
Any way, those are my concerns; and I know this is a Tele forum, but I based the guitar shape more on a tele than a les paul, so please forgive my treachery.

 

[KokoTele]

The best way to install the studs for the bridge is to first drill the holes and then tap them so there are threads to match the studs. (Not sure what size threads Faber uses on their studs, but they can tell you. Probably M4-.7)

To actually screw the studs in, start threading them by hand. A little wax can help. To finish the job, put two nuts on the stud, tightening the top one firmly down on the bottom one with a wrench. Works best if you use two wrenches so you can turn the nuts against each other. The two nuts will lock together and then you can twist the whole assembly down into the guitar. When it's at the right depth, use your two wrenches to loosen the nuts and then take them off.

The bridge should have about 1/2 mm of slop. When the strings are under tension, they'll press the bridge forward against the studs and it won't be an issue. If it really worries you, you could try to find some thin-walled brass tubing that's the right size, but it seems like more trouble than it's worth. TonePros "solves" this issue by drilling and tapping for set screws that tighten against the studs.

 

[guitarbuilder]

First make sure those holes are dead on because you don't have much wiggle room. With an ABR-1 bridge, I've drilled my pilot holes first and then double nutted the knurled adjustment wheels together and screwed them into the holes. It would be far easier to get a bolt with the same threads and make a " tap" and tap the threads into the wood. If you can buy the extra long studs you should be good. I haven't experienced that many studs leaning forward except of vintage instruments where they probably used Black Diamond strings on them. The bridge should get about 1/8" more angle on the bass side in order to intonate the saddles. The Nashville bridges have more travel to them too.

Prototype LeSG below:

 

[Peegoo]

but how exactly am I supposed to screw them into the body?

Find a Phillips screw of the same diameter and thread pitch (take a thumbwheel to the shop with you to match it to). Clamp the Phillips screw in a vise and use a small triangle file or a Dremel to cut straight flutes in the first five or six threads on opposite sides. Drive this screw all the way in, remove it, clean the screw threads with a small wire brush, and repeat on the same hole. Do the 2nd hole the same way. Blow out each hole with compressed air, and install the bridge studs using the 'jam nut' method described above.

If you use a power tool (Dremel) to do this, Wear. Eye. Protection.

 

[NoTeleBob]

If you are going for the full vintage look, then that's the bridge to use. Otherwise, I'd install bushings and a Nashville bridge. ABR-1 bridges are known to lean, have buzzing/rattle issues, and have less adjustment than a Nashville.

There's also a compromise option where you install bushings and adapter pegs to hold the ABR-1. That cures one of the inherent issues.

 

[Hodgo88]

If you are going for the full vintage look, then that's the bridge to use. Otherwise, I'd install bushings and a Nashville bridge. ABR-1 bridges are known to lean, have buzzing/rattle issues, and have less adjustment than a Nashville.

There's also a compromise option where you install bushings and adapter pegs to hold the ABR-1. That cures one of the inherent issues.

+1, the ABR bridge doesn't add anything, and a lot of guys will use 2" 6-32 machine screws drilled deeper into the body of a Les Paul to enhance them (MapleFlame mod).

The Nashville bridge may not have come on a '59 but it is superior IMHO

Of course, this is just the Gibson version of 3-barrel vs 6-barrel

 

[JohnnyThul]

I use a cap nut to put the studs in, works fine. You may want to wax the threads on the studs, where the cap nut goes on, so it is easier to remove later.
A little wiggle on an ABR is pretty common, I'd say, but you can also get a locking type ABR (also from Faber) to make it non wiggly.
So far I only used very long studs, because I happened to have them laying around in the right size. I drilled the holes with a drill press (not sure whether it was 2,5 or 3mm with a 4mm stud) and could attach a thread cutter in the drill press's collet, so, I could make sure, the thread cutter cuts perpendicular.

 

[schmee]

I agree with buying a tap and tapping the hole. It's nice clean work that way.

To screw a headless stud in, use two nuts and jam them/tighten them together. You can then use a small socket to screw the stud in.

 

[toonskeez]

Guess I'll be buying a tap then. I've actually never tapped a hole, as thus far, I haven't had need to.
I guess I need to find out exactly what thread size Faber uses on the studs I got, like @KokoTele suggested above.
and make sure there's a tap for that thread size; and I'll also need to get two nuts that screw onto that same thread size, for screwing the studs into the holes.

 

[toonskeez]

Just out of curiosity, is it really necessary to tap the two holes once drilled into the wood? I know that tailpiece studs go into threaded tailpiece inserts, as it's metal into metal, but if it's metal studs going into wood, I don't see why I need to tap into the holes in the wood? Is there something I'm missing? The inner barrel diameter of the studs is 3mm, so I will drill two 3mm holes into the wood. The outer diameter of the studs is 4mm.

 

[Hodgo88]

I think the recommendation for using a tap is because of the fine thread pitch found on the machine screws used for the ABR vs your typical wood screw or sheet metal screw which you see on Teles.

On a Tele, the only time you see machine screws is where it is metal on metal - intonation screws, switch mounting, saddle height. Any fastening done to wood calls for a sheet metal screw or a wood screw. Not so with the vintage Les Pauls.

 

[KokoTele]

It will be very difficult to thread those studs in without tapping a hole unless the wood is pretty soft. Try it on some scrap wood first, of course. It will help to put a small chamfer on the edge of the hole, but you don't want to overdo it because it will look bad. Be especially careful if it's already finished as it's super easy to chip the paint.

If you don't want to buy a tap, use the method that Peegoo described to make your own out of some steel screws of the same size and thread pitch. Faber can probably tell you what that is if you ask. Here in America, the hardware stores usually have a thread checker so you can verify the thread size of those studs. No idea what it's like in Ireland.

 

[guitarbuilder]

Just out of curiosity, is it really necessary to tap the two holes once drilled into the wood? I know that tailpiece studs go into threaded tailpiece inserts, as it's metal into metal, but if it's metal studs going into wood, I don't see why I need to tap into the holes in the wood? Is there something I'm missing? The inner barrel diameter of the studs is 3mm, so I will drill two 3mm holes into the wood. The outer diameter of the studs is 4mm.

The studs are like machine screws. They need " nuts" to be installed correctly. They are not tapered like wood screws and don't cut their own threads easily, but can do it with effort. You don't want to damage the studs or threads by beating them in either.

 

[CCK1]

1, the ABR bridge doesn't add anything, and a lot of guys will use 2" 6-32 machine screws drilled deeper into the body of a Les Paul to enhance them (MapleFlame mod).

My anecdotal experience is that this MapleFlame mod does make a difference. Haven’t done it on my Les Paul yet, but I did do it on my SG. Used 2” stainless 6-32 screws, didn’t drill the holes deeper, just made sure the screws went all the way to the bottom of the hole. Impossible to quantify or verify, but I really think this made a difference.

 

[Freeman Keller]

You have receivedf a whole lot of information, mostly pretty good. I'll give you my opinion for what it is worth.

There are three variations of the tune-o-matich bridge, based on how they mount to the body. The original Gibson bridge used on the iconic les pauls of the 1950's is the ABR-1. The mounting system for that is a machine stud (basicaly a bolt without a head) that is threaded into the maple top and mahogany body. Gibson used studs with 6-32 imperial threads, that is a fairly small diameter and fine thread that was intended to be threaded into metal, it is not a wood thread. Some manufacturers who make copies of the ABR-1 use a metric M4x.7 thread - not the same as the 6-32. The stud is screwed directly into the wood - to do it correctly you should use the appropriate tap to cut the threads in the wood. Some studs have an allen head which allows them tot be turned with an allen wrench, some do not and the old mechanics trick is to put two nuts of the appropriate threading on the stud, jam one against the other and turn the stud into the wood with a spanner wrench.

Because the ABR-1 was used on the vintage guitars many people feel that it is one of the keys to that sound so the ABR-1 continues to be used and some folks even convert their modern guitars to the 6-32 stud. However the use of a machine stud is really not ideal and two newer versions of tune-o-matics have come on the market - the so called "Nashville" and "modern" version, both which use inserts driven into holes in the top that the adjustable stud threads into. I prefer the modern one and that is what I use on all of my guitars. If you go to a site like StewMack and search for Tune-o-matic bridges you will see all three - with specifications on stud spacing, hole size and so forth. The StewMac fret calculator will help you with locating the stud holes relative to scale length.

Any of the bridges will work, they are not compatible with each other so you need to buy them as an assembly and drill (and tap) the correct size hole.


Here is locating the stud holes on a modern bridge - I put the correct size drill bit in the bridge and once the bridge is correctly located, tap with a hammer to transfer the hole centers, then drill on a drill press



Your holes will be smaller for the ABR-1, then you run the tap into the hole to cut the threads. Your stop bar will be pressed into its hole.

 

[toonskeez]

OK, fair enough. Thanks for all the info everyone. I have learned a lot and now I see why it's a good idea to tap the drilled holes for the 2 bridge studs. I don't have a drill press, but I just finished making a DIY drill press. I got a friend to drill a 3mm hole for bridge studs and 12mm hole for tailpiece inserts into a thick piece of MDF, then cut some threaded rod sections and glued in some nuts into the MDF, glued a nut onto each of the four rod sections, glued 4 large washers to the underside and can stabilize the rods from underneath with some wing nuts. I'm gonna use this jig to screw the 4 holes into guitar top.
And here's the guitar as it is currently:

 

[Freeman Keller]

My chart says a M4x.7 tap uses a 3,3mm hole. When you buy the tap get a "tap handle" that allows you to turn it. Drill the holes with you press and tap the holes by hand (slowly). Probably worth doing it in a piece of scrap first

 

[NoTeleBob]

Be very careful positioning as the ABR-1 doesn't have a lot of room for error. But, worst comes to worst, you can always redrill for Nashville bushings and get more range.

 

[old wrench]

The Faber stuff is good quality, I've used their parts on a few builds

Straight-up vintage-style parts, just like the originals, are fine, but I prefer the Faber "locking" versions, especially for the tail-piece - but that's just me



Placement of the bridge in particular is critical - there is no side-to-side adjustment, and you want your strings centered in the saddles

From looking at your pictures, it looks like you are in pretty good shape for vertical adjustments to your bridge

For the side-to-side bridge location you can either use your long straight-edge, or employ a couple of "dummy strings" temporarily strung up from the nut's high E and low E locations to their respective high and low E saddles on your bridge

The "dummy strings" give you a visual guide so you can be certain that your high and low E strings are running parallel with the neck and have the correct margin relative to the fret-board's edges

With the dummy strings in place, all you need to do is shift the bridge from side-to-side until you have it centered - where the dummy strings have equal margins relative to the fret-board edges, all the way up and down the fret-board

For the "dummy strings", I use a couple of pieces of "jet line", but any fine and reasonably strong line or string will work - you don't need to put excessive tension on the dummy strings, just enough tension to ensure that they are pulled straight - something like fishing line would work very well

.

 

[Hodgo88]

Straight-up vintage-style parts, just like the originals, are fine, but I prefer the Faber "locking" versions, especially for the tail-piece - but that's just me

+1, sometimes I forget when I'm changing strings on my LP or Firebird and as I'm yanking the last string off I hear the tailpiece fall off the studs and onto my lovely lacquer. The bridge isn't as bad because you'd have to flip the guitar over, but the TP definitely falls off pretty easy.

I also like TonePros setup as well. I don't know which the cork sniffers prefer.