Question about « reverse wound »

Discussion in 'Just Pickups' started by LowCaster, Sep 28, 2019.

  1. LowCaster

    LowCaster Tele-Holic

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    This question is for pickup winders or those who know, regarding RW/RP pickups (I know what they are used for): Do you really need to wind the pickups in the opposite way? Isn’t it the same to just swap the leads?
     
  2. sjtalon

    sjtalon Doctor of Teleocity

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    >Isn’t it the same to just swap the leads?<

    Yup.

    Manufactures just solder the correct COLOR leads on the flatware, as required for their set.............to get all in phase that is.

    So to not confuse things, the term should really be RC/RP. RC being reverse CONNECTED.


    Happy pickin'
     
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  3. LowCaster

    LowCaster Tele-Holic

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    Thank you, and that’s what I thought.

    But most pickup winders are using this RW term too.

    Maybe some of them are really doing things the other way? Does it change anything? Well, you know... tone maybe?
     
  4. sjtalon

    sjtalon Doctor of Teleocity

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    I can't (myself) see how it would matter tone wise. Little electron Dudes don't care which way to go, they just love running in circles. :p

    Sorry if I didn't phase that right, not meaning YOU are wrong by saying RW, as that is the term MOST commonly used.

    "should really be RC" just as a suggestion, as FTMP that's what's done. So it simplifies things and folks don't have to think so technical as to start wind-finish wind, ccw or cw coil whatever.
     
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  5. LowCaster

    LowCaster Tele-Holic

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    It was clear to me. And I get it that most builders are using the commonly used RW term. I’m just amazed that everybody in the business is assuming that most customers have no clue about basic physics (which is true, sadly). I’m no scientist either, just a regular guy trying to make use of what he learnt in his school days.
     
  6. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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  7. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    The direction of current flow is not reversed when we swap the leads!
    That idea would only work if the current was coming from the amp.
    Because the current is induced in the coil, simply swapping the leads does not change what happens in the coil.
    It only changes where each lead connects, so swapping leads means the end of the coil intended to be the positive led gets connected to ground.

    The direction the coil is wound combined with the top polarity of the magnets is specific, not random.
    Reversing one or the other will get out of phase sound or eliminate hum cancelling, but is not the whole reverse of another pickup.

    So for a good result we may find that reversing the leads can get us a hum cancelling result but without the in phase tone of two correctly made coils.

    IOW the fact that reversing the leads makes an audible change does not mean reversing the leads makes a RWRP pickup.
     
  8. LowCaster

    LowCaster Tele-Holic

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    Your comments are welcome, but I know that you can’t make a RW/RP pickup without reversing the polarity of the magnets too, I was trying to keep that out of the way. My question was specific to the meaning of « reverse wound ».

    You can wind a coil one way or the other, but, as you said, what happens in the coil is the same. In the end you just chose which wire is hot and which goes to ground. My point is that the winding direction is not more relevant than picking one end of the wire or the other. I may be wrong.

    I’d genuinely like to know which pickup builders are really winding their pickup reverse (by running the winder in the opposite way) and which simply swap the leads, and why?
     
  9. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's

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    I always think of it as RW = reverse WIRED. In other words, it's wired (connected) to the circuit in reverse. No need to go "RC."

    It's one of those terminology/semantic goofs like when Leo called the Strat's vibrato bridge a tremolo, and the tremolo feature of an amp a vibrato...
     
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  10. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I did not say what happens in the coil is the same if the coil is reverse wound and the magnets are reverse polarity.

    I said that simply swapping the leads does not change what happens in the coil.
    Reversing the wind direction changes what happens in the coil.
    Reversing the leads also changes what we hear, but not in the same way as reversing the wind direction.

    AFAIK all the pickup builders that make RWRP pickups wind the RW coils in the opposite direction.
    On the internet we read that you can swap the leads and get either humbucking or out of phase sound.
    The whole RWRP coil is required AFAIK if you want the whole effect.

    The coil and the magnet interact in a way that we may think of as two different things, but in reality it is more like one thing with two parts.
    If you apply a current to the coil, it becomes a magnet, even if there are no magnets present.
    Magnet polarity and coil polarity work in concert.
    So in a sense, both the coil and the magnet are magnets, and their alignment has clear reasoning behind it.
    AFAIK there are solid reasons pickup makers don't just swap the leads and reverse the magnets, instead also winding the coils in the opposite direction.
    I can't explain the electronic theory behind it, but I'm pretty sure the theory that all we have to do is swap leads, or swap leads and magnet polarity, is not entirely true.
     
  11. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    It does make a difference which way it's wound, because you're changing the side of the coil is hot and which is ground, which impacts the noise level of the pickup used by itself. If the start of the coil is the hot side of the circuit, you will get more noise due to the hot side being in closer proximity to ungrounded pole pieces. It's better to have pickups be arranged such that the start is ground and the finish is hot. If you have alligator clips and a loose pickup you can test this for yourself.
     
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  12. LowCaster

    LowCaster Tele-Holic

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    I don’t see how. Let’s keep the magnet polarity aside. If you don’t take the output wires into the equation, the wind direction is irrelevant. It’s just a coil, or a section of wire, and the magnetic field will induce some current in one direction that does not depend on the winding direction. You just pick the output (in phase or not) at ends of the wire.

    That makes sense. Thank you. And that (along with other factors I presume), that would contribute to explain why some pickups and some wirings (series/parallel) are producing more noise than expected.
     
  13. sjtalon

    sjtalon Doctor of Teleocity

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    Without this going too far off the rails.

    RW,RC,RWIRED/RP is a relative term, one pickup to it's mate in a pair (talking single coils here).

    Often mislabeled as a "RW/RP pickup", in a set acually DESIGNED and WIRED to have noise reduction, each one is RW/RP, relatively :cool:.

    So talking wound this way, wound that way, connected ground this end or that, what-ev, in the end, what simply happens ( the noise reduction) with a pair
    of these opposites, is a current flip flop, signal (EMI) cancellation deal.

    And as with a lot of things with different manufactures, (brands) there is NO standard in the industry, as to what is what, as far as which hole which pup is in (north top/south top), and proper phase (in or out) connection.

    SO mixing BRANDS is a crap shoot as we know, if you'll have things right.


    Great discussion & happy pickin' !!

    .02 and such as.
     
  14. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    I was about to say that a Fender Mustang would make it real easy to tell the difference, because it lets you select the phase of the single coils.. but uh oh, they put solid covers over the pickups, so you can't make direct contact between your fingers and the pole pieces. Coincidence?
     
  15. Rob DiStefano

    Rob DiStefano Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    RWRP is a precise term that defines uniquely relevant coils ... that is, for example, a tele set that's RWRP from any one winder may have a totally different wind and polarity configuration from some other winder. with tele pickups in mind, if there are separate leads for string and cover grounds, flipping the leads cares for any phasing issues. not so for polarity, it is what it is unless you know how easy it is to flip most fender magnet poled pickups - https://www.tdpri.com/threads/flip-a-pickups-top-magnetic-polarity.853731/

    almost all single coil pickups use the start lead for ground and the finish lead for signal. thinner, taller coils will typically be somewhat less noisy than wide, short coils (those noisy p90s and jazzmasters).

    almost all twin coil humbuckers that form the ubiquitous series connection join the finish leads, and therefor the start leads become ground and signal.

    life is good. :)
     
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