Quality control Golden age Amps 50/60s vs Modern Amps.....Modern may be better...this is why

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by The-Kid, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. mrbdxmpl

    mrbdxmpl Tele-Meister

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    Anybody remember the Six Sigma meetings with Jack Donaghy on “30 Rock?” I’ll take a 50 year old amp hand-wired by a Mexican American in a factory in Fullerton any day. Oh wait, I did...well, 40 years old. And yeah, I tried a reissue of my amp - the QC may have been higher, which is debatable, but it sounded like a transistor radio through an aluminum foil speaker in a cardboard cabinet by comparison. Enjoy your new amp!
     
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  2. The-Kid

    The-Kid Tele-Meister

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    you also have to take into account wide tolerences for example using modern caps and trans they are like 3% to 5%....


    Old stuff....more like 5-10%....some cases 15% because of much lower quality control.


    So I mean anyone could plug into a 50s and 60s amps play it and have it all 100% functional with sound coming out....but its subjective at that point if it sounds any good....and at this point those tolerences are shot to hell....like 20-25% maybe but definately higher than when they first started so it sounds nothing like it originally did....


    Some people may like this but I have plugged into 100% fully fucntional vintage amps thinking "Oh yeah this is ganna be great" then plug in and it sounds like dog poo poo...


    Plug into a modern amp....

    Pefection.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  3. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    Same question could be applied to the FB meme of "our parents didn't care what we did when we were kids, and yet we survived". Well, yeah. The ones that didn't survive are not around to tell their side of the story.

    The point being, however, that the old surviving amps can be repaired far more easily than modern amps. Newer amps are not disposable because of cheap components. They are disposable because the cheap components cannot be easily and cheaply replaced when they fail, which they eventually will do. Oftentimes prematurely. The amps are then not worth the time, effort, and money to be repaired. They then become landfill.
     
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  4. The-Kid

    The-Kid Tele-Meister

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    Modern amps are not easily disposable and can be very well be repaired. Granted not as easily as the old stuff for some folks but they are not impossible to work on and as easy for some as older amps.


    Agree with everything else you posted and good insight here
     
  5. The-Kid

    The-Kid Tele-Meister

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    Im not saying Turret boards are garbage...this looks great and I bet its amazing quality.

    I am just saying in general modern turret using modern parts or even PCB using modern parts in general is going to be better quality than stuff being used back in the 50s and 60s due to tighter, better and higher Quality Control.
     
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  6. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Holic

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    The industry-standard name for that program is "Six Sigma."

    Products built under it are not, by definition, better. It just means that 999,996.6 of every million units produced fall within the specs. That figure is a lofty goal and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody implementing Six Sigma has ever achieved it.

    Had the program existed in the 1960s and been applied to amps, Fender's specs would have been set to be within the acceptable tolerances of parts at the prices Fender was willing to pay. If the capacitor spec was 10% tolerance, products built with capacitors meeting those specs would have been considered non-defective if the other parts met their specs, too. If 10% wasn't the right spec for the product, no QC program on the planet will solve that problem.

    Before you drink too much of the QC Kool-Aid, take a minute to ingest the words of a gentleman named Richard Buetow. He was the Director of Corporate Quality at Motorola where and when Six Sigma was invented and oversaw its deployment there. His comment about ISO 9000, which is a cousin to Six Sigma, applies equally to both:

    "With ISO 9000 you can still have terrible processes and products. You can certify a manufacturer that makes life jackets from concrete, is long as those jackets are made according to the documented procedures and the company provides the next of kin with instructions on how to complain about defects."
     
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  7. wrathfuldeity

    wrathfuldeity Tele-Afflicted

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    There is a different cultural ethic. 50's folks built stuff that would last, was kiss and be serviceable by many folks. These days its about the numbers, qc standards, propriety protection...bean counting. Then there are the number of parts...old ptp...comparative small number vs now with integrated components...I have no idea.

    Your analysis is a rather narrow perspective or slice of reality...imo.
     
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  8. The-Kid

    The-Kid Tele-Meister

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    Yeah agree its Six Sigma but the notion that modern stuff has tighter, higher, better QC than 50s/60s QC still stands despite my word mix up

    Lower tolerences too @Blrfl
     
  9. The-Kid

    The-Kid Tele-Meister

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    again given QC of the time vs todays standards I find this very very hard to believe....

    And PCB now is very much sercvicable by many a tech.
     
  10. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    I didn't say impossible. I said often not worth repairing, given the lower amp value and specialized care and work needed to repair them.

    In any case, weren't you predicting the other day that tonemasters were going to lose their value very quickly? Weren't you also hoping to get Fender to put a DI and attenuator in their reissues? Didn't you also say you were in college for business management?

    Ahhh, gotta love BMA/MBAs. "Everything follows the law of supply and demand! Except when I don't want it to!" :p
     
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  11. The-Kid

    The-Kid Tele-Meister

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    Also Six Sigma are not merely guidelines, they are methods used not just to imagine a goal of one per million defects but to actually achieve it.

    @Blrfl

    Higher methods of QC surpasing Six Sigma are used for nano tech and jet air planes were the tolerences and QC demands are much higher to achieve desired results.


    If these were merely guidlines and not a system that achieves desired results.....good luck making cell phones, nano tech or other modern stuff we use.
     
  12. schmee

    schmee Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    I'm not sure your presumption is right, I have friends with modern SS amps that just abandoned them. They are more to fix than they are worth used. My bassist is one of those people. He has 3 bad bass amps. Carvin stuff is terrible for that too. The way this stuff is multi circuit boards layered inside, it's terrible to fix time wise.

    That aside, it sounds like you are talking about "initial quality". Quality can be many things. One consideration is how long the item will last. ie: "robust design". I seriously doubt you will see any digital amps like the Super Champ XD etc in 50 years! or 40, or 30 really.

    ....or there is "perceived quality" ie: the fit and finish and etc is impeccable, but like maybe an old Jaguar, or 90's Cadillac, when they were new.. it breaks down on the freeway not getting you from point A to point B.
     
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  13. bftfender

    bftfender Friend of Leo's

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    how does analogy fit into your stance on the Tonemaster thread? Your opinion is tonemaster they are not as good as original amps. Now this thread you state amps are built better these days...what are ya trying to get at in general..

    is it about how they sound..how they are built...how you might sound on em?
     
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  14. The-Kid

    The-Kid Tele-Meister

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    Hahahaha

    Markets as with people are a force of nature and yes ultimately numbers dont get everything right I digress ....



    But Ima keep hopes for a ToneMaster RI/ Reisue Plus.

    Even then yes you do make a good point regarding nature and peoples bias......even mine....and I have to be aware of that.


    Its the problem of evil.....

    The evil outside is easy to conquer..... Its the evil within that is most pervasive and hardest to face and deal with head on because it comes from within ones soul.....its hard to face ones own evils but it must be done sometimes.


    Thanks
     
  15. AlbertaGriff

    AlbertaGriff Tele-Afflicted

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    We get it. You love your Princeton reissue. I'm happy you enjoy your amp, but I can't help but feel that if you had bought yourself a vintage PR, this would have been the opposite thread.

    Not to come across as a jerk or anything, but you don't need to convince us that you bought a good amp. Most people love their Fender reissues.
     
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  16. The-Kid

    The-Kid Tele-Meister

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    Ever since the recent digital Revolution regarding next-gen modeling I think we all fell into a honeymoon of sorts really buying into that these things were as good as the real things and I even fell into this train of thought and digital fantasy.


    While these systems are good and yes they have the tone keys to play a song really awesome and especially the effects are practically as good as most of my pedals are better I have to say in some cases......... the magic of getting a tube amp in one of these boxes to be replicated through digital nomenclature is still beyond our capacity I really feel and this is with AXe FX.....let alone ToneMaster.

    Recently having work pretty hard for some cash I'm getting through some hard times as many do I finally been able to make a big purchase on a piece of kit.

    I was so willing and open to give these new nex gen moddeling units a shot and well revisiting them and giving them a hard look and listen I personally found that the nex gen stuff still to me didnt give the same satisfaction feel and sound wise as the real amps. Even gave the ToneMasters a whirl.....


    Alone yes one can easily plug into an axe FX or tonemaster and sound awesome and think nothing else of it... but actually trying out the amps vs these units you come to realize there is something to these old things and the way they were made.


    Im not coming to destroy digital amps or bring down the vintage stuff as I am trying to find appreciation and love for these tube amp designs that have proved the test of times pcb, turret, vintage or modern.


    As good as this digital stuff and no disrespect or rudeness to those who love em but I personally would be kidding myself if I said I found more love in any of the modelers, vintage amps vs my new PRRI.


    In hopes that manufacturers keep making these sick and awesome pieces of gear whole maintaining good quality and design that lends itself to long life and service lets keep these alive and not take them for granted PCB or Turrent boards.


    Its just awesome and Im not here to be a debby downer, my only agenda is my love for guitar and amps and hope that they will continue to be made this way and in some cases as with my concept for the Reissue Plus improved a little and moved into the 21st century.


    I love tube amps and digital has a place but at 29 I may sound like an old guy when I say this but digital isnt there yet and the Reissue stuff and modern amps and even vintage are still better for me in this regard.





    Back on topic playing some vintage stuff and handwired stuff IME the QC of today and design methods have made all this talk of modern amps being inferior to old stuff or vitnage semantic and mute....




    And to those who think mordern tube amps dont cut it.....keep an open mind and try again.
     
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  17. trxx

    trxx Tele-Holic

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    'Quality Control' is only one aspect of manufacturing an amp that deals with consistency to meet a given set of specifications. If the specifications are only concerning getting the thing out the door and holding up for a couple of years, then 'quality control' doesn't mean nearly as much as it could.

    There is circuit design, having good taste in sound characteristics in the first place, component sound quality and robustness (in addition to consistency), layout design for robustness and serviceability, parts availability for serviceability, giving a crap that you are putting out a high quality amp in the first place, marketing influence of buyer perception (the amp looks the part from the outside, for example) where less of a crap is actually given.

    Tons of vintage amps are still around for a reason. They got many aspects right, modern level of quality control be damned or not.
     
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  18. Norris Vulcan

    Norris Vulcan Tele-Holic

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    One thing's for sure, in the 50's/60's/70's there were many more electronic engineers, done their apprenticeships and had a broad understanding of electronics principles, and these folks found work in amp factories. They could tweak an under-performing amp before it left the factory which could fix inconsistencies.
     
  19. bftfender

    bftfender Friend of Leo's

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    Play amps..many amps....some will come & go in life...embrace what is working for your band or studio session work. Allowing for other tones to captivate....Sometime i have got stuck on brand...old..new ect...soon as i gave myself the go ahead to enjoy the music(not focusing on gear)..the veil came off...and also will change as our music playing needs change. i do originals..so always looking for something to inspire. Have a Bugera V22..every time i play it..something good comes out..but my brain says.."you must play your 4 holers" or you" must play the vintage Fenders"

    finally put it all in 1 room..ready to record & whatever inspires gets the call...using my ears to decide
     
  20. LuthRavin

    LuthRavin Tele-Meister Ad Free Member

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    Jesus..This BS makes my head hurt...I'm 70 I saw the QC at the time and I worked in the industry..things are not being made to last anymore, as in vacuum cleaners..I still have and use the ElectroLux(made out of steel) my Aunt used in the 50's..and I also have four throw-away plastic ones in my garage waiting for the land fill that may have worked for 6-12 months...you see that Super Reverb in my Avatar..it was last serviced in 2011..it was manufactured in 1965..things were built to last..will my VoxAC-10 last that long..maybe..if I throw it a closet and lock it away...but I dought it...you've seen a lot in your 29 years..
     
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