Princeton vs Vibrolux vs Super, when mic'ed

BostonTeleGuy

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For your situation a Princeton is a great choice. I don't think you can beat a classic super to my taste but a vibrolux would be my number 2 choice. The thing is carrying a vibrolux down 3 flights is still going to hurt your back. I have seen many people live playing with mic'ed Princeton's sound fantastic. Really just as good tone wise as Supers or Vibrolux but you will lose something on the presence though. It's just not going to sound as big as 4x10s.
 

steeve

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Hi all

I am a fan of the 10" sound, I know that after trying out many Twins, Supers and Deluxes. I have owned a Super for 10 years and when at 4-5 on the volume dial, it sounds like heaven. The thing is, my back has become really bad lately, I live at the 3rd floor with no elevator and I am not active in bands so much any more. So I was thinking of going to something more portable. I know I will miss what I call the choir effect (listening to 4 speakers playing the same thing) but how will the tone be when I mic the smaller amps? Does a cranked and mic'ed Princeton sound like a cranked and mic'ed Super? Comparing these three amps with the same tone stack and same speakers, do they have different attack, compression, headroom etc? What has been your experience?

One more thing, I often find the Super too bassy, do these other smaller amps have less bass? O do I need to modify the circuit to make it tighter?
I have been through the same dilema...getting old ugh...My solution is to use 2 small lightweight amps. I use 2 Laney Cub 10's...2 Princetons would be heaven! Just play through a stereo pedal or board or a Y adapter or A/B box. You will be amazed at the sound..it's like the result is way more than the sum of its parts. 1 small amp + 1 small amp = the sound of 3 or 4 !!!
 

Fiesta Red

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New Tube: ‘68 Vibrolux
New Not-Tube: Super Reverb Tone Master
Used Tube: ‘63RI Vibroverb…but it’s a bit heavy; not as heavy as a Super, but…
 

Volcanicash01

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Hi all

I am a fan of the 10" sound, I know that after trying out many Twins, Supers and Deluxes. I have owned a Super for 10 years and when at 4-5 on the volume dial, it sounds like heaven. The thing is, my back has become really bad lately, I live at the 3rd floor with no elevator and I am not active in bands so much any more. So I was thinking of going to something more portable. I know I will miss what I call the choir effect (listening to 4 speakers playing the same thing) but how will the tone be when I mic the smaller amps? Does a cranked and mic'ed Princeton sound like a cranked and mic'ed Super? Comparing these three amps with the same tone stack and same speakers, do they have different attack, compression, headroom etc? What has been your experience?

One more thing, I often find the Super too bassy, do these other smaller amps have less bass? O do I need to modify the circuit to make it tighter?
Just get a Roland Cube 30 or 60. Light and fantastic sounding. Think about your health mate! I always swore by heavy old tube amps, but these Rolands have got the lot. Get over your tube snobbery and join the club!
 

srolfeca

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If you're hooked on the 4x10 vibe, a Tone Master Super Reverb seems like the way to go.

Mic'ing up a 1x12 or 1x10 combo will sound flat and one-dimensional in comparison.

The TM won't shimmer quite like a real Super, but if you swap two of the drivers for Alnico Webers (load them on the diagonal), you'll get some stuff happening between the two sets of drivers. The weight difference will only be a few ounces, still well under half the weight of your existing amp.

I agree with other posters that a TM Twin is another possibility. Although it's only 3lb lighter than the TMSR, moving it around will be easier in other ways, simply because of the smaller enclosure.
 

srolfeca

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I have been through the same dilema...getting old ugh...My solution is to use 2 small lightweight amps. I use 2 Laney Cub 10's...2 Princetons would be heaven! Just play through a stereo pedal or board or a Y adapter or A/B box. You will be amazed at the sound..it's like the result is way more than the sum of its parts. 1 small amp + 1 small amp = the sound of 3 or 4 !!!
This is way out in left field, but I've been doing the same thing, only I'm doing wet/dry instead of stereo.

Small amp (my 5E3 or a Tone Master DR, depending), paired with one or two Headrush FRFR108's. As you point out, you can get some VERY big sounds with a stereo pedalboard into two amps.

Substituting a full-range powered speaker for the second amp lets you do some really interesting things as well- mostly in terms of how you split up your signal.

Imagine a pissed-off Fender throwing down some dirt, with ethereal clean delays and modulation out of a separate cab, mixing in the room instead of inside an electronic circuit!
 
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Big_Vig

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Wilmington NC
Save yourself! Consider and try any of the Roland Cube amps. I agree with Volcanicash01. I replaced my Princeton and Torres-modified Super with Roland's and never looked back. Far superior sounds, size, handling, and no tubes.
 

Bluzzi

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Montreal
Thanks for you replies. I'm not looking for saggy lows; I play instrumental surf music, among others, so I would like relatively fast response and tight bass. I understand that the Pricneton is not a good match then. Will the Vibrolux fit my bill?
I own all 3 amps although not all from the same era. My best one is my 68 Vibrolux all original. I have a 69 SR and a 65 PRRI. Forget the Princeton if you play Surf at band volumes. But I would say teh Princeton can do the Surf thing as well but just not as loud. You can always add another speaker to cover more area.

So you might get away with it but I would go for the Vibrolux. I love Surf although I have not tried to play much but when I did through the Vibrolux it brought me back to the early mid sixties.

So Vibrolux if you can find a blackface or even a silverface not the reissue as it is not a real clone of the Vibrolux. Although I don't own one I don't see why you could not use a Deluxe Reverb with maybe 2 10's.

I am like you I mostly like 10 in speakers. I get all the Bass I need out of them and they have much more punch and impact then 12's. However they do not project as far or wide as 12 in speakers.

Twang on....
 

mmannaxx

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I used to have a Vibroverb. Sold it. Used to have have a Vibrolux Reverb. Sold it. I used to have a Deluxe Reverb. Sold it. I still have and will probably always have my Princeton Reverb. All of these are original vintage amps, not pcb newbies. I do not play surf music though.
 

fuzzbox

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Atlanta
I can't speak specifically to surf guitar amp requirements, but would assume you need as much power and clean headroom as you can muster. That said, over the last decade I've migrated from a SRRI, to a DRRI, and now a PRRI with a 12" cannabis rex for 90% of my gigs because I'm always mic'd. Though they all have a distinct voice, I've found that the Fender DNA runs through them all without any real deviation in my basic tone. Though it may sound counterintuitive, the PRRI sounds bigger because the sound guy can put more of it in the mains and really fills a room.
 

SRVYJM

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I have to second (third, forth, something like that?) the Tone Master Super Reverb- I have one AND a 67 Blackface and I put the 67 in storage. The Tone Master sounds fantastic- I don't get yelled at at gigs to turn down- and I get that lucious growl that the 67 gives me at 7 at any volume I like- whether I'm at home or a club. The Tone Master series is just really well built and sounds fantastic. I have the DRRI Tone Master as well for even smaller gigs or when I want to take my car- terrific amps. Get complimented on the tone all the time. You can get SRV tone all day long (or Dick Dale for you) at non-ear-bleeding levels-
 

Havins

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I'm old and have used a lot of guitatrs and amp. I started out playing Ventures stuff in the early 60's. My amp choice currently matches your needs and many others and that is the Fender Super Champ X2. Using the Fender Fuse software you can set it up with 16 different amps combined with whatever effect you want. You don't have have to use a mic as it patches. The Tonemaster amps don't have this option and it is a lot easier to use than the Mustang series. Another consideration is the price and Fender's track record with non tube amps....they don't fix them they replace them. This becomes a problem since in the past they discontinue them before the warranty is up. I wouldn't spend a lot of money on something that might be hard to repair. The Super Champ X2 won't hurt your pocketbook. If you don't want all the amp choices on it just use the clean channel. This is an awesome little amp.
 

Havins

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I'm old and have used a lot of guitatrs and amp. I started out playing Ventures stuff in the early 60's. My amp choice currently matches your needs and many others and that is the Fender Super Champ X2. Using the Fender Fuse software you can set it up with 16 different amps combined with whatever effect you want. You don't have have to use a mic as it patches. The Tonemaster amps don't have this option and it is a lot easier to use than the Mustang series. Another consideration is the price and Fender's track record with non tube amps....they don't fix them they replace them. This becomes a problem since in the past they discontinue them before the warranty is up. I wouldn't spend a lot of money on something that might be hard to repair. The Super Champ X2 won't hurt your pocketbook. If you don't want all the amp choices on it just use the clean channel. This is an awesome little amp.
 

RaistMagus

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Dec 31, 2010
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Denmark
Thanks for all the good input guys!

I used to have a Roland Cube 10 or so years ago and I didn't like it at all, so I'm quite reluctant to try again.

I have this stupid thing in my mind that prevents me from buying a solid-state and/or modelling amp. If someone asked me for advice I'd totally recommend them, if it sounds good that's all that matters. But for my own use, I'm still torturing myself with tube amps and all the problems that come with them. If I happen at a store that has them I will try the Tone Master series.

How far is the new 68 Vibrolux from the original blackface or even silverface circuit and tone?

Another thought is to turn the SR into head + cab, maybe even remove one of the 4 speakers.

I like the two amp suggestion. Maybe a Princeton and a Vox AC15?
 

585960

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Jan 23, 2010
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Los Angeles
Monster tones if you know how.....under 40 lbs, and 12 watts.
 

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rschiller

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Oakland, CA
Hi all

I am a fan of the 10" sound, I know that after trying out many Twins, Supers and Deluxes. I have owned a Super for 10 years and when at 4-5 on the volume dial, it sounds like heaven. The thing is, my back has become really bad lately, I live at the 3rd floor with no elevator and I am not active in bands so much any more. So I was thinking of going to something more portable. I know I will miss what I call the choir effect (listening to 4 speakers playing the same thing) but how will the tone be when I mic the smaller amps? Does a cranked and mic'ed Princeton sound like a cranked and mic'ed Super? Comparing these three amps with the same tone stack and same speakers, do they have different attack, compression, headroom etc? What has been your experience?

One more thing, I often find the Super too bassy, do these other smaller amps have less bass? O do I need to modify the circuit to make it tighter?
Significant difference, beyond the 40 watts vs 12 watts, would be:
1. 6L6 has an inherently subtly different and perhaps slightly harder tone than the Princeton's 6V6.
2. Super-reverbs put some of the highest plate voltage on the 6L6s and the preamp plates; Princetons run at lower plate voltages and will again have a different tonality. A cranked Super-Rev is a thing of beauty but LOUD.
3. Super-Rev and Princeton Rev have same AB763 preamp circuit except the Super uses a .022 mid-range cap and the Princeton .047. The .022 actually gives more mid but you might not hear it because of the power section, the sharper tone, of the Super vs the Princeton. The Super-Rev has a 10k mid range pot; the Princeton has a fixed 6.8k resistor which because of the audio taper of the 10k pot is about a 50% setting.
4. Princeton uses the Cathodyne phase invertor which is provides no gain and is slightly softer than the Super-Rev long tail pair phase invertor which gives amplification so that the 6L6 pair will actually put out 40 watts or more at clipping.

If you like the Super-Reverb sound, as other have suggested try a Vibrolux. Another option is some custom builders - Little Dawg and perhaps others - make Princeton-Revs but use the long tail pair phase invertor which will give you more of the Super-Rev tone at lower volume. Or convert a Mojotone Princeton-Rev kit by eliminating the vibrato. The 4 preamp tube sockets would be sufficient.
 

Back at it

Tele-Meister
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It’s the spread of the 4-10s

i had 66 super that I dragged all over, I now have a 68 vibrolux

i think of it as a half super but it’s really not, it’s it’s own thing but much lighter
 

Tony65x55

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Oshawa, Ontario
I have all three types. Five Princeton Reverbs, four Vibrolux and a 1971 Super Reverb. My newest acquisition is a Tone Master Super Reverb and it is a honey and may be exactly what you're looking for. The sound is slightly different from my old silverface SR but no more than one SR is different from another. But it has two huge differences - the weight and the digital attenuation.

The weight is a delight at 36 lbs although the amp is still the same large size physically. I notice it because I'm a shortass but I have no problem moving it at all and it sounds and feels like my silverface.

The digital attenuation is a dream, allowing you to turn the amp way down to the 5 watt level before the tone degradation becomes noticeable. I've gigged it at the 12 watt level and it sounded great.

A big plus is the use of Jensen P10R speakers - real speakers not neodymium - and the P10R is a great speaker. Did I mention this amp is easy to carry?

My favorite amp is the Vibrolux reverb however and have a 68 Custom, a 1976, a 1967 and a 1961. The latter is a great amp but not same as the 2x10 variants. I have P10R Jensens in every one and they sound really good. Bonus, when you install the P10R speakers the weight drops to about 43 lb.
 




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