Princeton vs Princeton Reverb cleans
- Thread starter tfunk182
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Liriodendron
Tele-Holic
I think they're slightly different due to the reverb mixing resistor and bright cap.
The non verb is basically a big BF Champ. The reverb has an extra gain stage and the aforementioned mixing resistor which changes them just a bit.
The non verb is basically a big BF Champ. The reverb has an extra gain stage and the aforementioned mixing resistor which changes them just a bit.
The non reverb is noted for being 'a bit more headroom and cleaner'. But I don't believe either would normally be described as anything like a Cathode bias single tube Champ?
The 68 reissue is probably the earliest breakup of them all right?
The 68 reissue is probably the earliest breakup of them all right?
Liriodendron
Tele-Holic
LOL - it's the exact same preamp! They sound very similar clean if you put them in the same speaker.
many Fender preamp circuits are very similar. But to my ears, and I have them both here, a Champ and a Princeton are vastly different sounding.
kuch
Poster Extraordinaire
IMHO the 65PRRI is a lot "cleaner" than the 68. Had the 68 and got rid of it a week later, didn't like the sound. Love the 65!
Don't know about the non-rev, I've never owned one....
Don't know about the non-rev, I've never owned one....
As @schmee says, the non-verb Princeton, PR, and '68 CPR are almost the definition of clean, dirt available, and dirt easily available. I'll link this TDPRI discussion mostly 'cuz it's from 2004(!!!) and covers the basics. Back then they didn't have the CPR to add to the pot.
https://www.tdpri.com/threads/princeton-vs-princeton-reverb.25228/
https://www.tdpri.com/threads/princeton-vs-princeton-reverb.25228/
Liriodendron
Tele-Holic
Pointless argument. The non-reverb is a PP version of the Champ, that's what I meant. The reverb version is not, and it has components that actually change the clean tonal response wrt to the non reverb.
I will add that IF a BF/SF Champ is biased…by resistance or by tube selection…at 14 watts off heat dissipation which is 100% of plate dissipation, it will sound a great deal like the two gain stage preamp of the non-verb Princeton…or any Normal channel of a two channel BF/SF guitar amp….very clean. If the bias is running where a 470 ohm bias resistor would put any 6V6 except the very coldest tube one could find, then that 16-18 watts of heat dissipation on the plates makes the Bf/SF Champ become hotter…and the Champ then does what those P/P fixed biased amps won’t do….get real hot and nasty If pushed. The best sounding BF/SF Champ I have heard is one I owned, it had its OEM 6V6 and was running about 140% of max plate dissipation….20 watts of plate dissipation. Amazing sounding amp. out of curiosity, I went in steps of resistance for the bias resistor down to 14.7 watts of dissipation. At that point, it was sterile. I put the original 470 ohm back in….and Voila…magnificent rich cleans and eager overdrive.
Liriodendron
Tele-Holic
I wouldn't.
Of course it's going to have more headroom, more volume, more bass, etc over the Champ, but tonally it's not going to be a big difference.
It's a minor difference from your 68 custom.
You'd be better off getting something tweed, if you want some Fendery tones or a small Marshall, if you want to increase your vocab.
My (silver face, dunno what year) Princeton Non-Reverb stays pretty clean up the dial.
It has a little bit of grit as you get up there but doesn't start distorting the way my
bother's PRRI ('65) or my several ~champ builds do as you really get on the vol.
It has a little bit of grit as you get up there but doesn't start distorting the way my
bother's PRRI ('65) or my several ~champ builds do as you really get on the vol.
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If your home playing is always at low volumes and you just want clean, maybe not, close enough. If you ever turn up the volume and want clean, tho, you'll find neither your SF Champ nor your '68 CPR can stay as clean as a standard AA1164 PR, much less as clean as a non-verb AA964 Princeton. Bunch o' reasons (SE vs. PP, bias methods, gain, tone stack differences, CPR mods). But yeah, most folks who love the AA964 especially like the way it *stays* clean. Another link; this one discusses BF/SF Champ vs. PR vs. non-verb Princeton.
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/fender-champ-vs-princeton.1633650/
This. King Fan nails it.
ScottTunes
Tele-Meister
When I had the 3 prong power cord installed in my '66 Princeton non reverb amp, I requested that the Neg Feedback Loop be run through the former ground switch. "Standard," this non-rev stays clean all the way to 10 ( w/ original Jensen C10NA speaker)! It gets a little louder and slightly more gritty with the NFL "off." Nice feature, if you're looking for something to mod on a vintage BF/SF Princeton non-rev.
LostGonzo85
Tele-Afflicted
I agree with all of this. I’ve owned both reverb and non-reverb Princetons, as well as Champs, and there's a big difference between the reverb and non reverb models. Monumental difference between the non-verb Princeton and a Champ - you can't even compare them except on a superficial level. They look similar, have familial similarities in the tone, but Champs sound small and thin in comparison, especially at clean volumes, and lack the depth of the Princetons, and I like Champs. In my experience, he non-reverb Princeton has somewhat tighter lows than the reverb model. It doesn’t flub out, even with the volume up and a boost pedal to match the input gain of the reverb model. Because of this, it’s a more versatile amp for me - in the studio, turning up an amp to overdrive is no problem, but on stage, I find it easier to control overdrive when it’s coming from a pedal, so I'll pick the amp with more headroom just about every time. Without a boost of some type, the Princeton Amp is simply quieter - 6-7 on the volume knob is equal to about 4 on the Princeton Reverb, but both amps have the same power section. The non-verb can get just as loud, it just needs some help on the preamp side. But like I said, even with the boost, it really doesn't break up much until you really have it cranked, and then it's just a bit of hair. More definition to the notes. It's a perfect amp for country and jazz for this reason - I've played mine at a lot of outdoor gigs and have never had a problem with stage volume.
The '68 Custom is a cool amp, but as a gigging amp, IMO it's a bit handicapped in an attempt to make it more bedroom-friendly for folks who complained that the 65RI was too shrill at home volumes. The original PR circuit is already bassy in comparison to its bigger cousins, so... Fender made a version with even more bass baked in. Low frequencies require the most power to reproduce cleanly, so the additional bassiness of the tone stack reduces the clean headroom even further.
eddiewagner
Poster Extraordinaire
Exactly like mine. Very clean.
but that Push-pull changes, oh, almost everything . . .
That BF/SF Champ is a true Class A amp. There is one triode
of that 12AX7 that drives the a single power tube. That single power tube never ‘rests’…it handle ALL of the sine wave. The Class AB Prin/Prin Reverb has one tube that is a cathodyne phase inverter. The plate drives one power tube while the cathode drives the second power tube….each tube creating one half of the sine wave. Plus, the Prin/Prin Rev amps are fixed bias.
The Prin/Prin Rev amps are the smallest of the Push/pull BF/SF Fenders. They have much in common with the larger stablemates. The Champ,VibroChamp, and Bronco amps are another type of amplifier. If a person does not hear and/or appreciate the sonic differences, that is not my concern; but such perceptions do NOT make the Champ family of amps the same as the larger Bf/SF guitar amps.
of that 12AX7 that drives the a single power tube. That single power tube never ‘rests’…it handle ALL of the sine wave. The Class AB Prin/Prin Reverb has one tube that is a cathodyne phase inverter. The plate drives one power tube while the cathode drives the second power tube….each tube creating one half of the sine wave. Plus, the Prin/Prin Rev amps are fixed bias.
The Prin/Prin Rev amps are the smallest of the Push/pull BF/SF Fenders. They have much in common with the larger stablemates. The Champ,VibroChamp, and Bronco amps are another type of amplifier. If a person does not hear and/or appreciate the sonic differences, that is not my concern; but such perceptions do NOT make the Champ family of amps the same as the larger Bf/SF guitar amps.
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