Princeton reverb RI - Fizzy tone with drive pedals

[DVBAS]

Hey all

I bought a Fender Princeton Reverb RI a few months ago and really love it, but lately I’ve been noticing something about how it interacts with drive pedals. I’ve been doing some research and found that it can be a fiddly amp when it comes to pedals, but I just wanted to check that it isn’t some technical issue.

Basically, when I use a drive pedal at low gain, it sounds normal (like in the 'Double Muff low' file). However, whenever the pedal gain gets over a certain level (like in the 'Double Muff higher' and 'Cutting edge' files), the amp starts sounding very fizzy (a known issue online, but there are never audio examples to compare to, unfortunately) and even as if it something starts rattling. The strange thing is how sudden this happens. As soon as it reaches a certain level of gain, the character of the amp changes completely and it becomes super harsh to listen to.

I also own a Vox AC15, which doesn’t have this issue, so I was wondering if this is an example of how the amp always behaves, or if it is a problem with mine. From my research, I have found the following answers pertaining to the PRRI:

1) The headroom of the amp is low, so when the first preamp tube is pushed, it becomes unpleasantly shrill
(However: this never happens with volume boosts from pedals, only with increased drive/gain in multiple pedals)

2) The speaker could also be the cause because it takes a while to break in and is known to have a certain 'flavour'

3) The amp isn't biased correctly and/or the problem is caused by the tubes

The reason why I can't just take it back to the shop is that the chain (Bax Music in Belgium/Holland) recently went bankrupt and then had a restart, which led the shop where I bought it to temporarily close down and they will restart under a new chain of music stores. The closest shop I can take it to for warranty is quite far from where I live, so I want to be certain if this is actually a problem.

Thanks in advance!

(P.S. If the audio files aren't clear enough, I will try to record some more, I just quickly did it with my phone.)

 

[DVBAS]

I recorded a clearer example using a third pedal (Way Huge Supa Lead). In the beginning, the pedal is already engaged and set to a low drive, where it sounds normal. Then I increased the drive slightly to the point where it starts happening (slightly audible) and then to a bit more drive (clearly audible). At the end, I decreased the gain again and played another sustained chord, which clearly illustrates the difference with the higher gain setting. It's especially noticeable here how it starts to sound very distorted and metallic, but not in a pleasant way.

 

[srblue5]

Without listening to your sound clips (I'm in public right now with no headphones), fizzy-ness with gain and higher volumes has been an issue I've had with the PRRI. The PRRI is one of my pickiest amps when it comes to pairing an overdrive pedal with it.

Part of it is the character of the amp. I've read (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not very tech oriented) that it has a cathodyne phase inverter circuit unlike the long-tailed pair in "bigger" BF-style Fender amps, so it tends towards a ratty/fizzy overdrive when pushed harder. I find it difficult to use "transparent" overdrives with the PRRI but ones that boost the mids (like Tubescreamer) or slightly alter the EQ (like the Boss Blues Driver and maybe the Nobel Screamer) work better and are less likely to cause that fizz.

With the mid scoop of the amp sound, the bass and treble get higher as the amp gets louder, which coupled with the limitations of the speaker, can get fizzy or farty. I compensate by keeping my Treble and Bass controls at 0 pretty much all the time and also keep the tone controls on my overdrive pedals low.

For me, the PRRI has a fairly narrow sweet spot volume-wise. With an overdrive pedal, I never push it past 4.5; without, it's more like 6. Beyond that, it sounds very harsh and fizzy.

I've also come to accept that the PRRI has a unique character and I use it for that purpose. The fizzy-style overdrive is reminiscent of some '50s rock 'n' roll/blues (or throwbacks thereof, such as by JD McPherson or Nick Curran) that I enjoy, and the clean tones at low volumes are great. If I want higher volume cleans or smoother overdrive, I have other amps for that.

 

[68goldtop]

Hi!

I recorded a clearer example using a third pedal (Way Huge Supa Lead)...

I listened to your file, and I don't think it's the amp´s fault.
You don't like the sound your pedal makes in this situation - and neither do I

Work on the pedal´s controls to get it to sound the way you like it

cheers - 68.

 

[Jazzy-Will]

I use a Boss SD-1 with with my 65 Princeton (with a 12-inch speaker) without a problem. As a matter of fact all my pedals work well with this amp. Maybe it’s the pedals you’re using.

 

[DVBAS]

Thanks for all the feedback! It could be because of the pedals, but I still think it's a bit strange how it happens with all three pedals in the same way (EHX Double Muff, Vox Cutting Edge and Way Huge Supa Lead, three distinctly different kinds of drive).

@ srblue5: that sounds a bit like what is happening, but I still think it's a bit strange in how it almost sounds like a 'rattling' kind of sound. I tried setting treble and bass at zero and used my Cutting Edge (which has a 3-band eq and a low-cut) set at minimum treble and bass, with mids at 12 and a full low-cut (emulating more of a Tubescreamer eq curve) and still got the same result when increasing the gain. It's as if it's purely caused by the increased gain, which just seems so odd...

If that's normal behaviour, then I don't mind and will try to find the best way to work with it, but the kind of distortion it makes just seems so atypical.

 

[LostGonzo85]

If you're stlll running the stock Jensen C10r, I'd get that speaker out of there ASAP and replace it with something more mid-focused. If I were routinely playing with a lot of overdrive (not typical), I'd put a Celestion G10 Vintage in mine and call it a day. Same voicecoil and magnet design as the Vintage 30, but in a 10" speaker, and the Vintage 30 is a classic choice among Nashville pros and plenty of other cats for "browning out" a scooped amp like a Deluxe Reverb.

Pedal choice also matters - I also find transparent overdrives tend to get lost in the mix, but something like a Tubescreamer, Pro Co Rat, or Klon clone with a more nasally eq curve can be the perfect compliment.

 

[schmee]

Hey all

I bought a Fender Princeton Reverb RI a few months ago and really love it, but lately I’ve been noticing something about how it interacts with drive pedals. I’ve been doing some research and found that it can be a fiddly amp when it comes to pedals, but I just wanted to check that it isn’t some technical issue.

Basically, when I use a drive pedal at low gain, it sounds normal (like in the 'Double Muff low' file). However, whenever the pedal gain gets over a certain level (like in the 'Double Muff higher' and 'Cutting edge' files), the amp starts sounding very fizzy (a known issue online, but there are never audio examples to compare to, unfortunately) and even as if it something starts rattling. The strange thing is how sudden this happens. As soon as it reaches a certain level of gain, the character of the amp changes completely and it becomes super harsh to listen to.

I also own a Vox AC15, which doesn’t have this issue, so I was wondering if this is an example of how the amp always behaves, or if it is a problem with mine. From my research, I have found the following answers pertaining to the PRRI:

1) The headroom of the amp is low, so when the first preamp tube is pushed, it becomes unpleasantly shrill
(However: this never happens with volume boosts from pedals, only with increased drive/gain in multiple pedals)

2) The speaker could also be the cause because it takes a while to break in and is known to have a certain 'flavour'

3) The amp isn't biased correctly and/or the problem is caused by the tubes

The reason why I can't just take it back to the shop is that the chain (Bax Music in Belgium/Holland) recently went bankrupt and then had a restart, which led the shop where I bought it to temporarily close down and they will restart under a new chain of music stores. The closest shop I can take it to for warranty is quite far from where I live, so I want to be certain if this is actually a problem.

Thanks in advance!

(P.S. If the audio files aren't clear enough, I will try to record some more, I just quickly did it with my phone.)

IME that is what a PR does with a drive pedal pushing the front end too much. My guess is it's the Phase Invertor style as I found it with more than one PR I had. I used to use either of a couple (vintage) PR's at some gigs, but when enough pedal drive is applied, the amp just gets gnarly. A Deluxe Reverb doesn't do that.
I did find a bigger power transformer helped with headroom a bit. But even with that and a Deluxe output tranny, they still can get gnarly fast unlike the Deluxe.
Great for a certain niche of sound, but not for every situation.

 

[68goldtop]

Hi!

Thanks for all the feedback! It could be because of the pedals ...

Yes, your pedal/s don't seem to sound good right now - just tweak the knobs before you start thinking there's something wrong with your amp

Just as a reference... I used my ´79 PR as my main amp in our rock-band for a couple of years (rehearsals, recordings, gigs...).


I upgraded to a Deluxe because of the clean-power/punch it has, but sound-wise I never had any trouble with the PR and a Jensen C10Q.

Here´s a (rather rough) live-recording of that set-up (and an overdrive-pedal) with our band.
You're welcome to listen to the whole song, but the first minute will do, I guess



cheers - 68.

 

[DVBAS]

Okay, that's comforting to hear. I mostly bought the amp for clean sounds, but I was just worried that something might have been wrong because of how suddenly the shift into distortion is when using a pedal. I actually have a TC Electronic Cinders in the mail that should arrive this week (a slightly modified blues driver circuit), so I will check how that sounds!

@LostGonzo85: Thanks for the tip, but I'm going to hold off on replacing parts, I actually quite like how the speaker sounds on clean sounds.

@68goldtop: sounds amazing! Great gritty tone, like I was actually expecting, so hopefully I can get something similar as well with the right setup.

 

[J-bass&Tele]

How loud do you usually play the amp? Have you got another speaker/cab to try with the amp?

I don't have a PRRI but that sounds like how my C10Q (C10R in your PRRI) reacted to loud dirt before I played a loop quite loud for hours through it to break it in. It needed more time and volume than other speakers I have.
It didn't suddenly turn into a Greenback but still more usable with dirt than before.

 

[68goldtop]

Hi DVBAS!

... @68goldtop: sounds amazing! Great gritty tone, like I was actually expecting ...

Thank you very much

I hope you can get your rig to sound "right" with a couple of tweaks to the knobs!
Most OD/Distortion-pedals offer volume/gain/tone - or even more options.
Adding the Princeton´s "basic" controls (volume/treble/bass) you have a LOT of knobs to play with

cheers - 68.

 

[DVBAS]

Hi everyone

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions so far!

I finally got the cinders and I noticed the same thing as with my other drive pedals: it sounds great at lower levels of gain and then suddenly becomes buzzy/rattling as soon as it reaches a certain threshold. It could be the regular behaviour because of the phase inverter, like mentioned by schmee, but I'm still not 100% convinced because the BD-2 circuit should be a good match and it's a very sudden change in sound. Unless this also happens with other people?

@J-bass&Tele : that sounds plausible too, I use it only at home right now, never going past 4 on volume. It could be that the speaker needs to break in first? Did yours sound like the following video? Not the best audio quality (it's much more noticeable in the room), but you can hear how the chords and especially single notes get this kind of gnarly/sharp overtones once the gain is pushed:

 

[J-bass&Tele]

Hi everyone

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions so far!

I finally got the cinders and I noticed the same thing as with my other drive pedals: it sounds great at lower levels of gain and then suddenly becomes buzzy/rattling as soon as it reaches a certain threshold. It could be the regular behaviour because of the phase inverter, like mentioned by schmee, but I'm still not 100% convinced because the BD-2 circuit should be a good match and it's a very sudden change in sound. Unless this also happens with other people?

@J-bass&Tele : that sounds plausible too, I use it only at home right now, never going past 4 on volume. It could be that the speaker needs to break in first? Did yours sound like the following video? Not the best audio quality (it's much more noticeable in the room), but you can hear how the chords and especially single notes get this kind of gnarly/sharp overtones once the gain is pushed:

I did a quick test just now with my C10Q, my Interblock 45 (Fender-ish tonestack), Tele bridge pickup and a couple of my flat frequency overdrives.
Even if my C10Q sounds better after many hours of pummeling it loud, I can still get something similar to what you got in that video.
I don't think it sounds like something is wrong, it's the combination of the whole chain.

That said, the BD-2 circuit has a whole lot of fuzzy gain and treble available. Good sounding pedal but most pedals have sweet spots and those depend on the guitar and amp as well. I set my pedals different if I play through my Vox or my Fender.

You have several ways of controlling the treble in that chain:
Pickup selector
Tone knob on the guitar
Gain on the Cinders (more gain -> more overtones)
Tone knob on the Cinders
Treble on the amp

All that high mid/treble from the Jensen makes it sound lively when clean or slightly pushed but it needs judicous use of tone/treble knobs when more gain is pushed through it.

 

[J-bass&Tele]

A few days ago I bought a used Princeton '68 Custom so a speaker and a few components away from a PRRI but close enough. Been trying it with a few speakers (in external cabs).

Today I played with Tele bridge PU->dirt pedals->Princeton->C10Q and yes, the bright cleans are great but whenever a lot of dirt (clipping) is added from pedals, that high end easily gets harsh and spikey unless tone knobs are used wisely.

 

[wrathfuldeity]

Have a se 6L6 tweed Princeton like. It's the best clean paper woody and bell like. But gain pedals not so much... Though just cranking the volume there is a great smooth and saggy grind to be had. Btw, came with and using an old 12" Jensen PM5 alnico. However ime using different external cabs and speakers make a huge difference.

 

[DVBAS]

Thanks for the detailed replies and research J-bass&Tele! Sorry for the late reply, I’ve been out of town for a week and haven’t had much chance to check your findings.

I did some extra tweaking and can identify everything you and everyone else have said on the subject in my amp as well. It really is the circuit and how it reacts to gain staging and especially added treble.

Now that I’m certain it’s natural behaviour, I’m actually very intrigued by what kinds of sounds I can coax out of it with different combinations. Stacking low drives with attenuated treble could be interesting. I also got a TC Honeypot fuzz in the mail (based on a Russian Big Muffin), which sounds really good with the tone all the way down and the gain all the way up.

Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone ever tried a treble booster like a rangemaster with a PRRI? It seems like the most counterintuitive combination, which makes it all the more intriguing.

 

[J-bass&Tele]

Thanks for the detailed replies and research J-bass&Tele! Sorry for the late reply, I’ve been out of town for a week and haven’t had much chance to check your findings.

I did some extra tweaking and can identify everything you and everyone else have said on the subject in my amp as well. It really is the circuit and how it reacts to gain staging and especially added treble.

Now that I’m certain it’s natural behaviour, I’m actually very intrigued by what kinds of sounds I can coax out of it with different combinations. Stacking low drives with attenuated treble could be interesting. I also got a TC Honeypot fuzz in the mail (based on a Russian Big Muffin), which sounds really good with the tone all the way down and the gain all the way up.

Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone ever tried a treble booster like a rangemaster with a PRRI? It seems like the most counterintuitive combination, which makes it all the more intriguing.

Well, my point was that it's mostly the speaker. With most of the other speakers I've tried with the Princeton, that harsh and spikey top end isn't there or at least a lot less so.
That spikey high end in the C10Q is there no matter which amp I've tried it with.

 

[SnorkelMonkey]

Now that I’m certain it’s natural behaviour

Have you swapped out the speaker? Some people love that sound of an underrated speaker trying hopelessly to keep up with a cranked amp. I’m not one of them. Why? With some speakers you get this fizzy fuzz like tone that you can’t dial out. In most amps including Princeton’s I like to put a highly efficient speaker in that doesn’t collapse under the abuse.