Practiced vs. Spontaneity. Do You Have a Love / Understanding / Desire for Both?

[DekeDog]

Referencing Jeff Beck, a perfect example of what made him great is 'Cause We've Ended as Lovers. It is basically a variation on two themes. Like in most traditional jazz compositions he starts with the head, improvises for a while, comes back to the head, then ends the song. The magic comes from his feel and technique and his ability to shape melodic phrases.

I once asked two very accomplished jazz artists what they think about while they're improvising. One said: "Ice cream." The other said: "Jazz is a language, and I just say what I have to say." You don't get there without practice, and like they say: Learn it, then forget it.

I think what makes any professional great is his/her ability to more readily access the zone. When they're smiling, you know they are there. You know it when you are there. Everything flows. Everything works. It is intuitive.

 

[Grandy]

One of my favorite pharases is "getting it right isn't enough." Music is something that happens in the moment. You can practise and rehearse and then be able to play it without making mistakes. But that's just the beginning. If you've shaken and twisted the material and explored all possibilities you can think of, then you've given yourselves a chance to go beyond and perhaps reach the "zone."

On the other hand you cannot plan for happy accidents. And it's always a collective thing. Just playing by yourself isn't quite the same. Not that great solo performances aren't possible.

What you can do is leave as many things open as possible and not lock things in place when arranging a piece of music. This is risky though and doesn't allways work out the way you hope to.

 

[Tricone]

In my experience practicing and being spontaneous go hand in hand. They feed off each other. You have to know the rules to break free of them.
The trick is to leave sign posts along the journey so you can find your way back. This will help keep the band together when improvising.This what the best improvisers do. How do you achieve this? Practice, individually and/or as a band.

 

[schmee]

Live music: If you want to hear a note for note cover of a song just hire a DJ. Seek your own arrangements.
"Trusting yourself to play the next note, although you don't know ahead of time what it should be..."

 

[Bob Womack]

I think improv and being spontaneous are being conflated here. IMHO, Improv is a skill that has to be learned and practiced like any other. There are the mechanics of motion and gesture that must be practiced until they don't have to be thought about, the library of gestures that need be stored away, and the business of dropping into the zone that is best accomplished when done often and music be kept current to easily be triggered. Improv is basically composition executed in the now.

I sit and work through classic pieces, note for note, both learning and refining my execution. Besides the discipline of simly learning to make a piece of music work, it forces me to execute things that people other than me, and sometimes playing instruments other than mine, have created. I work through violin pieces, uilleann pipe pieces, bagpipe pieces, oboe pieces, etc., precisely because things that are natural and easy on other instruments can be beautiful but difficult to play on my instrument. The gestures and techniques I am forced to learn invariably work their way over into other parts of my playing.

I set aside time to practice improv as well, selecting a chord progression and practicing dropping into improv mode and the zone.

Bob

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . free jazz or free improvisation is an interesting example, because it’s implicitly assumed it’s to be entirely spontaneous. but the more you hear certain players, the more you hear prepared/stock material. usually when it’s truly spontaneous you either hear them almost not making it, or actual flubs. . . .

A guitar teacher friend took lessons with an old veteran jazz guy who taught my friend to put it out there and not be afraid of flubs. The jazz guy said (stretching out his harms and making a big circle in the air), "I make my mistakes big like Mars!"

I'd love to be in a band called Big Like Mars.

 

[Fiesta Red]

I’d rather hear a spontaneous performance any day. If I wanted it to sound just like the recording. I’d stay home and listen to the recording.

 

[Masmus]

If you only play for yourself or family and friends it really doesn't matter, if that is what you are asking about. If you're playing on stage for money it does matter. You need to practice with the band until the band is tight weather or not you improvise or play note for note. I got back together with my old band after 12 years and it was like we had never stopped playing, but we practiced a lot in the old days to get there.

 

[middy]

Back when I was in an originals band, I would try to get the new stuff recorded as soon as possible before we over rehearsed and drove all the magic out of the tunes.

 

[chaosman12]

In general I prefer live recordings over studio recordings. Recording of live shows seem to have a better groove going. Perhaps it's not just the improv aspect, but rather the interaction with the audience that helps the musician add more feelings. That of course can't be "practiced".

 

[eddiewagner]

Hard fact: you need to practice. And you need to like to practice.

 

[Matt Sarad]

I practice daily on guitar and mandolin.
So far it pays off 50% of live performance.

 

[teletail]

Hard fact: you need to practice. And you need to like to practice.

The more you practice, the better your spontaneity.

 

[Trenchant63]

And yet many folks who identify as musicians can't do either. Unless I'm missing something the majority of music forum site members fall within the categories of "play at home". "play for the pleasure of it", "play to relieve stress", "play with or for friends and family", etc. The majority of musicians don't do it as their primary day job. Most fail to practice at a level that would be required to truly earn a living at it. Many go through their whole lives without discovering the zone much less playing in it. I think you can be a musician without getting a gold star in either category. The focus in this thread is on "when does a musician truly perform at their highest level"? I believe it to be when they practice all of the techniques required to perform their material to the best of their ability and then step out of the box to allow the magic of spontaneity to combine all of those well practiced skills into something new and special. Something you might only play once and, having been lost in the zone, may not remember enough of it to ever play it the same way again. I think of these moments of spontaneity that a skilled and well practiced musician sometimes slips into are both moments to be treasured as well as an example of the musician playing at their highest possible level.

I don't believe their are a hundred guitarists currently alive on planet earth who have truly mastered every possible guitar technique, (I know I'll never be one of them), and I've never heard of a single one who has mastered the zone, (having the ability to enter and leave it at will). The idea that to be a musician you need to be able to do both is truly beyond my comprehension. For myself .... I've been to the zone many times yet have no idea how I got there, what all I played while I was there or how to return there. I've come out of performance dazes to a crowd of dropped jaws and much applause having no idea what the fuss was about. Folks would tell me what I'd just done and, initially, these conversations were somewhat scary because they were telling me my conscious mind had totally left the room and that some one or thing had taken over. It's only been in the last six to ten years that folks have actually been able to walk up after a performance with cell phone recordings or videos so I could hear and see what they had heard and seen. The performer I'm seeing is not me. That guy is playing at a level I could never hope to play at. I'm seeing stunts I would never attempt and perfect runs I couldn't have played on my best day. Yet. There it is. Right in front of me. I don't know how I got there and I don't know how to go back. Every now and then it just happens. Sometimes weeks would go by and sometimes months would go by depending on how often I'd been playing. Now it's an extremely rare experience. If I'd ever figured out how to control the zone, well .... I don't know where it might have led but, no .... I never did and now don't believe it's humanly possible to control it. I've listened to dead heads explain why they followed Jerry Garcia from gig to gig. I just figure this zone thing might be the answer. It doesn't happen often but when it does you don't want to miss it. As a groupie or as a performer. You don't want to miss it.

That’s really interesting to me. It’s not happened to me like that. I always know what I’m trying to do but with varying degrees of “wherever the melody takes me” randomly searching the next note. But never where I go into a trance and come out not knowing what I’ve done. That’s pretty cool to be able to do and tapping into your creative subconscious but a little of a bummer that you couldn’t capture the memory of it.

 

[Stringbanger]

The more you practice, the better your spontaneity.

Right now I’m just playing songs on an acoustic. I have a standard 40 song set of covers that I am plowing through. Sometimes it takes 2-3 days, (or maybe 4) , to get them all.

It’s all fun! Sing with your heart!

 

[sax4blues]

I listen many interviews of accomplished musicians. There has never been one who did not play alone a lot, hours per day/days per year/years per lifetime. I don't know if they called it practice, but the spontaneity which we appreciate in concert didn't just happen out of the air.

 

[teletail]

I listen many interviews of accomplished musicians. There has never been one who did not play alone a lot, hours per day/days per year/years per lifetime. I don't know if they called it practice, but the spontaneity which we appreciate in concert didn't just happen out of the air.

+1

I went on a biography binge for over a year and read about 35 or 40 biographies of famous musicians from many instruments - guitar, keyboards, sax, drums, singers in rock, jazz, blues, classical fields. You are correct that the one thing they all had in common was hours of practice every day. The other thing they had in common was playing in ensembles with outstanding musicians.

The thing that the anti-education crowd doesn't understand is that having a thorough knowledge of theory combined with good technique frees you from the mechanics of playing and allows you to just make music.

 

[Cosmic Cowboy]

Had a nice rehearsal today. It was a 2nd rehearsal with some local players. And the best material was the stuff we weren't prepared to play.

Did "In color"and "Bandi the rodeo clown". And did it better than any of the tunes we came in prepared for.

Idk. But playing with guys who can just come off the cuff is awesome.

 

[G Stone496]

Depends on the situation and how I’m feeling that day. Some songs and collaborations go best with one or the other. Yeah don’t want to rule either one a those out. Might as well keep both those avenues open.

Also from my humble limited experience, spontaneity doesn’t preclude practice. To be spontaneous I have to be comfortable with chords, scales arpeggios and modes that I’ve practiced.

 

[redhouse_ca]

I'm writing this because it's something I thought about and struggled with during my early years in music. Practice makes perfect. Spontaneity during a performance, (when everything comes together), makes for something oh so much better than perfect. I've been to multiple clinics held by guitar superstars. I've listened to them explain how to note for note play this or that and have learned a lot. That said, invariably some one attending will ask the player to just lay back and play. Everything you've taught us is wonderful. Would you be willing to just to set a beat on your drum machine / backing track / whatever and just let the dogs out? We'd love to see what your mind comes up with "Spur of the moment". (OK. A lot of times I was the one asking). It's interesting. Some do it better than others. None score every time. Yes. I'm saying it. Sometimes even the masters fail. The point here is .... when everything falls into place ... they perform something better than anything they've practiced. They find the zone. They lay back and creativity is the front and center part of the performance. Plus ... the listener is treated to a "once in a lifetime" experience. It wasn't practiced or recorded. It was created "in the moment". All of the best guitarist performances I've ever heard were created in the moment. Not practiced. Birthed from who knows where. I understand. You could never make a high earning career if you couldn't repeat your best work but, if your best work is / was, as I've found to be in most cases of challenged guitarists, (that which you come up with on the fly in a moment of spontaneity). does this place your fame more on you or on an audience that has recognized this potential for god like performances but realize this won't always be the case.

This isn't a thread dissing practice. I believe practice is extremely important to a guitarists abilities. When I think of practice I'm thinking about technique. Practicing every technique to get them as close to perfection as possible. What I'm not thinking about is how to play a mirror image of a song I recorded 40 years ago and fans still like to hear. Jeff recently died. We all know. We've all heard his tunes. I can't honestly say I've ever heard him play one that was identical to the original or majority of past performances. Jeff had a way of slipping in and out of the zone to reproduce the main thrust of the original but allow for spontaneity in the current performance. I also assume Jeff practiced a lot.

This makes me think of Dead Heads who followed the Grateful Dead from venue to venue hoping for a night when Jerry found that special place in the zone. Maybe one in five nights they would go home having experienced an unrepeatable dream while the other four nights they would go home thinking "maybe next time". Yet. Their love of spontaneity and "in the zone" performances trumped the most practiced and rehearsed performances they could have attended. I've seen the same thing with fans of Willie Nelson, The Traveling Wilbury's, The Who, etc.

How many fans of The Who point to "Live at Leeds" as the greatest place to listen to a rendition of "Substitute"? It differs fronm the original release on "Meaty" in many ways and most fans consider it the best. On that night the band was "in the zone". They left the script behind.

How many fans of Peter Frampton think of "Frampton comes Aiive" as containing the very best versions of all the songs it contained? It was based on a handful of nights selecting the most "in the zone" moments of the tour rather than the most "as close to the practiced and known original versions of the songs performed.

So. What's your opinion? Rehearsed and performed to perfection based on the original studio recording or performed during that special time when the guitarist was "in the zone"?

This is interesting. The way I'm thinking about this (and this may be you point and if so, sorry that I missed the nuance) is not so much practiced pre/show, but practiced right before you start to play. I mean, thinking about how you roll start and preparing a rough (or detailed sketch) of what and hot to play it. I really struggle with this in front of an audience. Candidly, I get nervous and when I do I try and motivate the perceives risk of screwing up by planning to the greatest extent possible and when I do that it's always bad. It becomes like a feedback loop, and it pretty much shuts me down. I struggled with this in public speaking for a while and I made some rules, prepare to the night before and then shut it down and don't look at until literally opening up the content for the preso. I apply something similar to guitar, and I play way better when I do. I find as a group we play better together. I realized at some point that during this last minute self freak-out cycle, I was checked out and that's disrespectful to the other players and tje audience. Now when we are throwing around solos, I lean in to the others playing and it's night and day difference for me and for everyone.

Sorry if that got off track.