Please can we have more modelling vs tube amp threads

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by rze99, Dec 24, 2019.

  1. bcorig

    bcorig Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    When I got my Yamaha THR10C for $250 I figured WTH? After less than a day I love the sounds and their tonal quality I can get. Lots of fun. I don’t know who’s being dishonest or if anyone is. I know I really like playing through both. Or I just really like playing.
    What was the question?
     
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  2. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    All-time Champion Thread Killer to the rescue! This ought to do it. :twisted:
     
  3. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Ad Free Member

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    The "tube" sounding wannabe amps (and let's face it, that is what they have been trying to be for decades) seem to be getting close.
    Give it another decade ... or two.
     
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  4. Bill

    Bill Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    I’ve had a Mustang III V2 for a couple years and I really don’t think it sucks. Not claiming it replaces my ‘66 Deluxe Reverb or ‘59 Princeton, but I think it’s a good amp.
     
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  5. Ignatius

    Ignatius Tele-Afflicted

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    I agree with you. It's all whatever works for us as players. And I was firmly in that camp with you, in that tube amps worked well for me - and continue to do so, along with my new Tone Master DR. I hope you didn't quote my post as an insinuation that I don't display the courtesy you mention, because I could give a rat's [behind] what anyone else chooses to play through or their reasons for doing so.

    I will, however, stand by my assertion that guitar players are an odd bunch.:D
     
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  6. StrangerNY

    StrangerNY Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

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    I used one as my main amp for a couple of years, but as the modeling boards got better I kinda came to the realization that the Mustang's models weren't really all that great.

    If I'm doing a gig that demands straight Tele tone, I'll still use it. But if I have to have a couple of different tones at my disposal it stays home.

    - D
     
  7. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    The nature of the internet is the strangest of all.

    On the internet we keep reading that music fans don't care how the guitar sounds, nobody listens to the guitar player unless they screw up, and that users of tube amps are luddites who should spend more time buying and trying the latest products and not spend so much time playing music with their old tube amps.

    But does anybody ever wait for the show to end so they can go tell the guitar player how much more versatile they would be with a modeler?
    Does the audience worry that the guitar players tube amp might be heavy, expensive, unreliable, unsophisticated and lacking in versatility?

    I mean in terms of playing music, what is it about those who still prefer tube amps that bothers fans of new product lines so much?

    Using the same old gear is the opposite of cork sniffing.
    It's playing music.
    Or it may be giving the Mustang and the Katana a try and not feeling the urge to replace the old gear with those popular options.

    Shopping for and debating which of the latest gizmos are the most awesome is where the cork sniffery is happening.
    I mean I'm happy to hear from product test pilots and guinea pigs, but I'm still mostly OK with tube amps.

    I'm from a tech choice era that was simpler.
    Buy a BF Fender amp and a non master Marshall, play some music, use the one that works bast and maybe then get a bigger or smaller one etc. Or buy a Vox and a Boogie!
    Tired of the old non master Marshall?
    Sell it at a profit and buy a JCM800!

    Sell my Line 6 Pod?
    Sell my Mustang (I didn't buy because it was pretty lame even as it was bought up like hotcakes)?
    Remember when buyers of the first gen Mustang pointed fingers at "tube snobs"?

    Marshall recently blew out their latest modeling head for way below MSRP when the buying public didn't go for it.
    Too bad, I'd be interested in a cross between the Tone Master line and the old JMP-1.
    I don't want a model of a BF Fender or a do all amp with 100 presets.
    I might deal with downloading stuff to make a guitars amp work, but that's not how my mind works.
    Fender was smart with the tone master.
    Some buyers just want to play guitar, not shop test and tweak.
    My favorite old Marshall had lost it's plexi panel and there were no labels for the knobs.
    I didn't even have to look as I knew what they all did.
    Lots of clean to dirty sounds from pick attack and guitar vol.
    It was cheap too.
    Brought an Esquire down to Chelsea guitars, plugged in and knew instantly.

    I'm not really interested in amps that don''t sound good until I load stuff off the internet.
    I'm trying to get interested though!

    Really my biggest problem with tube amps is that every time I find one that just plain knocks me out, after a few years the value goes up so much I have to sell it and buy something cheaper.
     
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  8. Toast

    Toast Tele-Holic

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    I want the amp with the bolt-on ashtray containing plastic faux ashes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
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  9. Frodebro

    Frodebro Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Don't forget that age-old rallying cry of "Tone is in the fingers!", which is likely pushed by many of the same people that insist that modelers don't sound as good. Then there's the "But they don't feel the same!", as if all tube amps 'feel' the same-which they don't. My Marshalls are somewhat loose and spongy, the Boogie is tight and unforgiving. Totally different feel, in spite of the fact that both are tube amps.
     
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  10. Bendyha

    Bendyha Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Well, I must admit to buying a can of Orange cleaner when I felt the need to clean up the tolex on my OR 100 and 4x12 cab.
    upload_2019-12-26_17-40-58.png
     
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  11. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    AFAIK that III V2 being what, five or more generations of redesign and improvement, is a lot better than what was heralded as being the latest greatest and sold like hotcakes.
    If we're talking used gear as mentioned in the 5-10yo category, a lot of it is less than great.
    The MIIIV2 is a lot more expensive than the early Mustangs, and shoppers who use tube amps might not have spent the time researching all the versions of the Mustang to know which ones are "good" and which ones are "bad" or "just OK".
    I played an early one and it wasn't bad.

    But I'm used to truly great amps.
    This isn't bragging or snobbery, it's what I could find used that sounded good to me, and sounded better than other amps that actually cost more.
    As long as new gear followers blogging on the internet can't agree/ keep saying the last one was pretty good but this years model is great; I'm just not shelling out for the expensive stuff that has a consistently good rep.

    Or your comparing the MIIIV2 to your '66 Deluxe Reverb and basically saying it isn't as good.
    I might buy a used Vox MV50 to try and compare with the rest of my gear.
    Youtube makes it sound like they all sort of ragged bass, not sure how accurate youtube is though.
    I can't judge an amp until it's in the same room with one of my favorites.
    Pretty basic judgement, and I'm a devoted bottom feeder that will use gear from the dumpster or the flea market if it sounds good next to what I already have and like.
     
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  12. Digital Larry

    Digital Larry Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

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    I've owned several modelers over the years and wasn't always happy with them, but it wasn't the sound or lack thereof. As I'm fond of saying, when I get to the point where the guitar tone is the worst thing about the songs I'm writing, then I'll worry about it.

    - My Johnson J-Station developed a habit of putting out white noise through its S/PDIF output (which is what I was using). Had to reboot to fix it temporarily. Either sold it or threw it away.

    - I guess you can call the Adrenalinn a modeler - it has some amp models in it but is not marketed alongside modelers. The Adrenalinn is a very powerful box with a nearly impenetrable User Interface. This one also does the white noise trick from time to time due to loosely socketed chips inside. Mine's just sitting there now. I may try to sell it really cheap full disclosure etc. on Reverb.

    - Katana 100W - sitting under the bench gathering dust at the moment. I was bothered that I couldn't set the reverb return level to be foot pedal adjustable. Sound wise I had no problem getting tones I could record. If someone comes over they can use that one.

    - Yamaha THR-10C - had some good sounds, but one of the models worked very strangely as regards gain/master volume and I didn't like the limited effects programmability and 4-fx-on-one-knob thing. I did use it for awhile as an audio interface and recorded some stuff using Cakewalk on my laptop in the living room. Didn't like having to learn another gadget and so I sold that. Sound wise, I thought it was pretty great. I'm back to playing my acoustic guitar in the living room.

    - Digidesign Eleven Rack - this is what I'm actively using. I like the UI with relatively large LCD and multiple knobs (don't want to program it with the PC) and the XLR outs which I run over to my mixer for recording. As many have said, its FX combos are somewhat lacking, but it has a decent FX loop and good integration with MIDI footpedals and MIDI clock for tempo, LFO sync, etc. Foot pedal can easily control 4 parameters at a time including reverb return. We have a winner!

    - Guitar Rig 5 - for some reason I am not that fond of fully PC based stuff. It's the UI. I may try to get this working in Ableton Live for more repeatable results (since Live doesn't save my Eleven Rack presets).
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  13. rolandson

    rolandson Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    You ain't get'n off that easy fella.

    Though if you really want it gone, all you have to do is say the magic words...

    Think hard. You'll figure it out.

    I take exception sir!

    The Vox Tonelab™ was equipped with a for-real Electro Harmonix 12AX7 tube, for that "genuine tube warmth" ( their words, not mine ).

    [​IMG]
    "The glow of the 12AX7 provides .... " (again, their words, not mine) See, look at it ... glowing at you, right there in the photo !!!

    "...multi-effect and modeling processor that delivers the warm, fat distortion of pure tube sound." (Yep, more quotes...I particularly like the use of the word "fat"; sorta gets you, right here!)

    Oh...about that glow....it comes from a little LED underneath the tube, which doesn't really seem to do anything, as the 'thing' works whether the tube is installed or not.

    "Wannabe" indeed!
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  14. Digital Larry

    Digital Larry Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

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    Are those NOS chicken head knobs? Does the AC adapter use cloth covered wire?
     
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  15. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Any anything we might say as a generalization that is based in truth will inevitably have places it's simply not true.
    Tone is in the fingers could go pro modeling or anti modeling and is already a double misnomer since our tone comes more from knobs and where we pick along the string, while our sound is mostly phrasing and rhythmic feel.

    Tube amp feel is all over the map, and I'm not fond of todays more popular "feel amps" like the 5e3, because tube amps with too much feel lack articulation to my ear.

    More or less compressed is also found in a knob on many common devices, but of course we have so many ways to sag!
    I no longer feel a tube rectifier is required for "good tube amp feel", but I do vastly prefer tube amp compression over SS compressor pedal compression.
    I have no doubt that enough ones and zeros can digitally model the feel of a tube amp, largely because conversion is way faster that the brain now. Or at least I believe that's true, could be wrong though.

    I guess what holds me back is I like fuzz'z, I like to set fuzz levels well above unity gain, I'm used to what a fuzz does to a 12ax7, and I'm not as tech savvy or as able to think about gear when playing music as some players.
    Even operating recording gear screws up my ability to play music and I've been doing that for 35 years.

    If there was an affordable simpler Marshall modeler that was also light weight and really sounded pretty darn good, I might buy one and use it.
    If I have any gigging left in me it'll have to involve light weight gear.

    Funny how discussion of light weight guitars gets similar annoyance/ attacks as both sides of the tubes vs modeling get.

    Why attack each other over this stuff?
    It really isn't personal.
     
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  16. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Yup, case in point. Do anything to make a wannabe even look like a tube amp.:p The infamous lighted tube.:lol::lol::lol:
     
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  17. Frodebro

    Frodebro Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    The pendulum has swung the other way, and now tube amp manufacturers are scrambling to see their products competitive with digital in the current, volume-prohibitive world. Power scaling and speaker-emulated outputs are an example.
     
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  18. kennl

    kennl Tele-Afflicted

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    Playing a gig later today.
    Keys and guitar - instrumental jazz and holiday music
    Since the keys are going direct, I'll pass on the SFTR and other backline amp choices and use a modeler.
    We will each hear the FOH mix through the monitors
    Sound guys will have no issues
    We will get more gigs there
     
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  19. archiemax

    archiemax Tele-Meister

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  20. Buffalo0993

    Buffalo0993 Tele-Holic

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    I would like to see more modeling pre amp to tube power amp designs. I think this is the best of both worlds.

    Most of us are using solid state preamps in the form of pedals anyway
     
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