Playing over the IV and V..

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Qyle, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. Qyle

    Qyle TDPRI Member

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    What do you guys do for this? I've memorized the major and minor pentatonic scales, and have even memorized a hybrid scale where I incorporate both scales into one shape. (similar to the Bebop scale minus one note) I'm aware that I could just stay on the respective I scales, but I find it a bit boring now. I've also studied countless blues players trying to figure this out! Am I switching over to the IV and V scales on their respective marks? It doesn't sound right to me.
     
  2. bingy

    bingy Friend of Leo's

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    When the chord changes... You change. Words from Joe Pass.
    Try using chord tones in arppegios... move to the chord form of the IV, then to the V.
     
  3. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Altered scale over part of the V?
     
  4. Qyle

    Qyle TDPRI Member

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    Ah, thank you for the advice. This is something I've been confused about also, which note of the chord is the chord tone? Is it the bass note an octave up?
     
  5. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Telefied Ad Free Member

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    "Chord tones" is just another way of saying the notes of the chord, the 1, 3, 5 and 7 of a 7th chord, for example (played in any register).

    By mentioning chord tones, the implication is to not just play the pentatonic over a whole chord progression without consideration of the chords underneath it and their interaction.

    Put on a backing track and just listen to how each note sounds over the chord, the 1, the 3, the 5, the 7. Heck, do it for all 12 notes.
     
  6. Lobomov

    Lobomov Friend of Leo's

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    Are we talking blues here or?
     
  7. Qyle

    Qyle TDPRI Member

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    Yes, the blues. Sorry, forgot to specify.

    Ah wow, this is a great concept I have to start paying attention to. Thanks!
     
  8. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    There are many ways to negotiate the V to IV in a blues.

    Knowing the chord tones as BigDaddy mentions is probably the best way to really understand what's going on and sound competent.

    I will sometimes use pentatonics over the V and IV. *Though not the same pentatonic (type or key).
    V - minor penta (or blues scale) from the chord root.
    IV - Major pentatonic from the chord root.

    I copped this from Robben Ford years ago but have subsequently heard it in many blues players' playing.
     
  9. upinthemteles

    upinthemteles Tele-Meister

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    You mean the root of the V and IV right? Just making sure because you said not necessarily the same pentatonic.

    I often use the minor pentatonic of the I chord over the IV, for the V I usually think altered. For the I it's usually a mix of minor and major pentatonic, also chord tones. I'll try to think of turn arounds that lead into the next chord and play those as arpeggios. For instance, before the IV chord, play a Vmin7 to a I7(altered). Leads into the IV nicely, especially if it's a major IV.
     
  10. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yes.
    If we're in the key of A blues it would be E minor penta to D major penta.

    This will still sound very bluesy.
    If and when you want to sound jazzier then your options are legion.
     
  11. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    I'd like to mention voice-leading by step. If you are in C major, the V = G = G B D. The IV = F = F A C. Let's say you are playing a whole note on V and a whole note on IV.

    Here is every stepwise motion between those chords:

    G down to F
    B down to A
    D down to C
    G up to A
    B up to C

    If you have a fairly mature ear and have listened to a lot of music, the most "sophisticated" combinations are:

    B down to A
    G up to A
    B up to C

    The least sophisticated, awkward, or clunky combinations are:

    G down to F because it produces parallel octaves (or unisons) with the root motion in the bass.

    D down to C because it produces parallel 5ths against the root motion in the bass.

    Now, I'm not going to tell you what is sophisticated and what is not, nor whether you should avoid un-sophisticated motion. What I do want to say, though, is that the motion that I call sophisticated has a different emotional quality than the motion that I call unsophisticated.

    Furthermore, anyone might prefer the emotional quality of unsophisticated over sophisticated. Or, one might prefer one quality over the other when playing fills, or when beginning a solo, or ending a solo, or with OD, or with clean.

    Now, if it is starting to appear that I am suggesting that you can use any motion any time, you would be wrong. Part of my problem as a soloist that I have grappled with my whole life, is that I need to play with purpose and awareness, not just any notes willy-nilly. If I don't differentiate between sophisticated and unsophisticated voice-leading, then my music can appear to lack structure and form. It starts to sound more like noodling or wandering around.

    It takes a lot of listening and playing to be able to internalize this kind of stuff, so you can do it without even being aware that you are doing it. This is because you will be playing more from ear and intuition when you become more aware of what you are hearing in other music, as well as your own.

    I forgot to mention that one of the main reasons people use stepwise voice-leading between chords is to make the transition smooth, and less jarring. Rhythm players do this all the time. What I am saying in this post is that soloists do it, too, with the chord-tones.

    I know that what I have written looks incredibly mechanical, filled with a lot of rules, note names, and so on. But when you reach a certain level of fluency on your instrument, as well as with the abstract relations of notes, you don't actually recite the words that I have written. Rather, you play basically as you always have. It's just that you have more ways that you can hear, more directions that you can go in, more ways that you can respond, and be able to respond quicker, so that your flow just takes over. It takes work, but the steps are well-known and people achieve fluency all the time. It's not that big a deal to become fluent at this stuff. But you do have to put in the time, minimum 2-3 hours a day for a year or two. Ideally, you might get to the point where you enjoy everything about it.
     
  12. slowpinky

    slowpinky Tele-Afflicted

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    +1

    Voice leading - which also, as BD mentioned, means knowing the components of each chord -i.e the arpeggio.
    Try voice leading arpeggios through te progression- both on the guitar and with the voice to internalise the sound.

    In the blues its nearly always V - IV - so the basic permutations of inversions where the last chord tone of V leads down to the nearest chord tone in IV work:

    G B D - C A F

    B D G - F C A

    D G B - A F C

    Larry's comment about the sophistry of the motion between certain pairs is very cool - but get used to hearing these ones before moving on.

    There are so many more permutations if you dont limit yourself to the direction you go in - after you voice lead between each chord by step in the first instance.

    After that - moving freely between 2 chords gets more intuitive and interesting.

    This is a real 'jazz' practice but is fundamental to any harmony really.
     
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