Pigmenting lacquer for solid colors

[Chart72]

So -
I just got an hvlp gun for work. I’m wanting to use it for guitars as well. Picked up some clear gloss nitro lacquer from rockler (haven’t tested yet), some mixol, & some transtint dye. But I’m thinking the clear lacquer is not intended to make solid colors? I tried some googling but came up empty. What do you all use for solid colors? And what sort of ratios do you recommend?
Thanks!
Charlie

Also-I am open to using poly/acrylic! Just want whatever’s easiest. I like the way lacquer lays down, dries so quickly, and how the coats burn into each other

 

[Freeman Keller]

Chart, I don't normally shoot solid opaque finishes but everything I do uses nitrocellulose lacquer (I've tried a couple of other things and come back to lacquer). Almost everything I know about shooting lacquer I have learned from the Dan Erlewine book Guitar Finishing Step by Step. Dan discusses the various ways of coloring guitar finishes - staining the actual wood as well as toning and shadng the fiinish itself. He describes the various dyes and pigments that have been traditionally used for guitar finishing (I think that is important) and givers many "recipies" for some of the vintage finishes that we admire. I woud highly recommend getting a copy of Dan's book just for the background information.

Be advised that there is some criticism of Dan's methods, that they are otimized for Stewart McDonald products but I will say that I have followed his advice for 30 guitars now and they have all turned out well.

Also this is a very good reference for someone trying to duplicate old Fender colors

Vintage Guitars Info - Fender custom color finishes on vintage Fender guitars

 

[Freeman Keller]

I will add to my last comment that I have a good friend who is one of the best custom motorcycle painters in the world. Candy, metal flake, flames, striping, all sorts of airbrush work on custom choppers and cars. He also paints guitars and uses the two part auto finishes just like on bikes. I have never tried auto finish, he did paint my motorcycle in exchange for some work on a guitar, but that is another option for you is you want solids.

 

[Silverface]

But I’m thinking the clear lacquer is not intended to make solid colors?

You are correct. Opaque lacquer colors are made by tinting white or a premixed color of lacquer - but you have to be careful not to use too much pigment or you'll get "color float" - separation of the tints in the tinting base lacquer resulting on a mottled look.

When hand-tinting you have to start with a base color close to (and lighter than) you target color - universal tinting colors work fine; but deep colors need to be tinted professionally at a lacquer supplier, with some requiring mixing work at the factory with price-prohibitive minimum orders (usually 4-10 gallons at several hundred $ per gallon.)

 

[Silverface]

Be advised that there is some criticism of Dan's methods, that they are otimized for Stewart McDonald products

FWIW I've criticized his extended dry time requirements before use; and his calling "dry time" "curing"(along with some other terminology not correct as far as their use in the professional coatings manufacturing and application industry.)

Conventional nitro, acrylic and lended lacquers DO NOT CURE. They dry only by evaporation, with properly applied coats drying in 30-60 minutes.

Some Colortone and Deft "lacquers" were blends of lacquer and oil based enamel (recognized by "naphtha", "mineral spirits" and/or "alkyd resin" showing up on MWDS, as all are hazardous ingredients (nitro and acrylic lacquer resins are not hazardous). Those STILL do not cure - they only dry by evaporation...but a much longer time than conventional lacquer products.

 

[Timbresmith1]

Artist pigments. Winsor and Newton make some great ones.

 

[Chart72]

Chart, I don't normally shoot solid opaque finishes but everything I do uses nitrocellulose lacquer (I've tried a couple of other things and come back to lacquer). Almost everything I know about shooting lacquer I have learned from the Dan Erlewine book Guitar Finishing Step by Step. Dan discusses the various ways of coloring guitar finishes - staining the actual wood as well as toning and shadng the fiinish itself. He describes the various dyes and pigments that have been traditionally used for guitar finishing (I think that is important) and givers many "recipies" for some of the vintage finishes that we admire. I woud highly recommend getting a copy of Dan's book just for the background information.

Be advised that there is some criticism of Dan's methods, that they are otimized for Stewart McDonald products but I will say that I have followed his advice for 30 guitars now and they have all turned out well.

Also this is a very good reference for someone trying to duplicate old Fender colors

Vintage Guitars Info - Fender custom color finishes on vintage Fender guitars

Thanks for this- I think a book is the way to go, and I bet dans is a good starting point. I make a fair number of guitars, for myself and friends, so it’s time for a step up in finishing skills. The information that is readily available online seems targeted towards beginners using spray cans and professionals with pro setups, but not much for those of us in between!

You are correct. Opaque lacquer colors are made by tinting white or a premixed color of lacquer - but you have to be careful not to use too much pigment or you'll get "color float" - separation of the tints in the tinting base lacquer resulting on a mottled look.

When hand-tinting you have to start with a base color close to (and lighter than) you target color - universal tinting colors work fine; but deep colors need to be tinted professionally at a lacquer supplier, with some requiring mixing work at the factory with price-prohibitive minimum orders (usually 4-10 gallons at several hundred $ per gallon.)

Interesting! Thanks. Maybe I will have to go find a lacquer supplier somewhere… or just stick with lighter colors til I get the hang of this setup

 

[Chart72]

Artist pigments. Winsor and Newton make some great ones.

Is this something you have done? Do you have any pics?

 

[oldunc]

All I know is, I tried it once (not really my kind of thing- I like natural wood), bought some Colortone pigment from Stew Mac. I thought I'd work up to the concentration I wanted, but my first mix of a few drops in a cup of plain, clear lacquer produced a strong, bright red color. No particular problems with spraying or drying, and the guitar still looks good 7 or 8 years later.

 

[Timbresmith1]

Is this something you have done? Do you have any pics?

Yes. I’ve also used Gamblin brand pigments in lacquer. I don’t have any pictures as it was several years ago.

 

[fleezinator]

I'm by no means an expert, but I found working with Createx Wicked Colors to be pretty simple, inexpensive and can be found at any Hobby Lobby in the US in a number of colors. I went with an all water based workflow and started with their AutoBorne silver sealer + Wicked black to get full coverage in 2 coats. I then followed up with their Candy 2o in Blood Red and top coated with Varathane Ultimate.

You can shoot Createx straight from the bottle and, I think in your case, save the lacquer for your topcoat. Their YouTube channel is full of info and their support team is very helpful. You also might find the tech docs handy:
https://creatextech.com/assets/pdf/app-guides/Createx-Hard-Surface-Application-Guide.pdf
https://creatextech.com/assets/html/pages/Wicked-Colors-TDS.html

 

[Chart72]

Awesome, lots of interesting approaches in here thanks everyone. Looks like I need to try a few things and find what works for me.

 

[Chart72]

I'm by no means an expert, but I found working with Createx Wicked Colors to be pretty simple, inexpensive and can be found at any Hobby Lobby in the US in a number of colors. I went with an all water based workflow and started with their AutoBorne silver sealer + Wicked black to get full coverage in 2 coats. I then followed up with their Candy 2o in Blood Red and top coated with Varathane Ultimate.

You can shoot Createx straight from the bottle and, I think in your case, save the lacquer for your topcoat. Their YouTube channel is full of info and their support team is very helpful. You also might find the tech docs handy:
https://creatextech.com/assets/pdf/app-guides/Createx-Hard-Surface-Application-Guide.pdf
https://creatextech.com/assets/html/pages/Wicked-Colors-TDS.html

Gorgeous! Thanks for the link. Water based is nice too. So much simpler

 

[Rhomco]

You can get opaque color tints from Sherwin Williams stores. It mixes well in lacquer.
Rob

 

[Audiose_LP_picker]

So -
I just got an hvlp gun for work. I’m wanting to use it for guitars as well. Picked up some clear gloss nitro lacquer from rockler (haven’t tested yet), some mixol, & some transtint dye. But I’m thinking the clear lacquer is not intended to make solid colors? I tried some googling but came up empty. What do you all use for solid colors? And what sort of ratios do you recommend?
Thanks!
Charlie

Also-I am open to using poly/acrylic! Just want whatever’s easiest. I like the way lacquer lays down, dries so quickly, and how the coats burn into each other

I use lacquer simply for feel and ease of sanding and polishing, oh and it dries super fast. In my 27 years experience with solvent based paints, I can tell you lacquer is magic. Kind of the "universal paint." I've mixed it with any and every kind of paint. It almost always works out with exception of some synthetic enamels (the super stinky stuff. It will sometimes spray cobwebs out your paint nozzle. Ive done this as an effect before.) this being said, Urethane is light years ahead of it in terms of durability. Make no mistake, lacquer is not durable when it comes to usage, or even sunlight exposure. But urethane is a bunch harder to sand and buff, and the feel is just gross when you start to perspire. So lacquer it is. When you tint the clear, its going to be tuff to achieve a good even solid color unless you apply enough finish, that it would affect the overall dimensions of the guitar. But going back to the universal nature of lacquer, use whatever kind of paint you want underneath, then apply the clear lacquer. It's probably going to work. I've used everything from hand applied clothing dye, cheap spray paint, even had the auto paint store mix me a pint of Urethane basecoat etc. Lacquer is pretty much clearcoat for dummies, and basecoat is pretty much color for dummies. They are this dummy's go to for color and clear.

 

[jrjrdiablo]

Ive also looked for white nitrocellulose lacquer...can't seem to find it.
Is there a source for this? order online or at store

 

[Wyatt]

Ive also looked for white nitrocellulose lacquer...can't seem to find it.
Is there a source for this? order online or at store

Premixed? Oxford and (link removed) sell some of their colors in tins.

 

[jrjrdiablo]

Thanks for the links.
How about Sherwin Williams?.. I know from their website, they have nitro lacquer...white, clear etc
But I haven't had any experience with them though.
I was curious how shops make their own colored lacquer finishes...I'd imagine they use white base & then add colors to it.
thanks again

 

[Beebe]

Start with about 1 to 4 tsp of pigment powder in 4oz of lacquer and shake well.

I use natural mineral pigments from suppliers like Natural Pigments or Earth Pigments.

You might get better results if you mull the pigment with some of your solvent first. Make it look like paint would out of a tube then add to lacquer.

Results may be improved with the addition of a dispersant. These are usually long molecules that attach to the pigment particles and keep them from clumping up.

Each pigment is a special crystal with with different particle sizes, tinting strength, dispersion properties, drying times.

You may improve results by adding clear or clear ish extenders like : talk, kaolin clay, chalk, mica... These can help with dispersion and sanding.

Zinc sterate is added to clear to make it fluffier and easier to sand, turning it into sanding sealer.

Mica is great for pearl, sparkle and chameleon colors with strong tinting strength and easy dispersion as long as you continue to shake the gun. I buy it in bulk from cosmetics suppliers. I do find it increases drying time though, so don't put on too thick.

 

[Beebe]

This is a Green Earth pigment from Cypress shaken up in a shellac based home brew spirit varnish.

It's a semi transparent pigment.