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Pentatonic adjunct thread : a chops/advanced player you revere loves a “simple” guitarist you don’t

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Mike Eskimo, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    Now Radiohead has some interesting chord progressions, time signatures, etc...
     
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  2. raysachs

    raysachs Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I think there's such a thing as bad - music that imparts no feeling and nothing but a technical or mathematical exercise is my idea of BAD, no matter how many modes and scales the player uses. Bad can also be someone who can't play more than the minor pentatonic but still has no feel for the music.

    But GOOD can take so many forms. A guy like BB King rarely if ever ventures out of the major and minor pentatonic, but he's way past good IMO - he's among the greatest ever. Or someone like Garcia who could play all sorts of modes and scales and go anywhere with them, but did it all so organically was also great IMO. Julian Late is my current obsession - I can almost imagine people being that technically good, but being able to translate that technique into such insanely imaginative ideas blows my mind. There are three guys who range from the simplest music to some of the most complex music there is. I can play a little bit like BB, with a little bit of Garcia's feel but in so much more limited a way, and I can't play in the same stratosphere as Late - he's just galaxies beyond my ability to do anything but listen. But what makes each of them great is their ability to communicate feeling and emotion and tell us something about themselves through their playing. If you can do that with 5 notes or 5000, it doesn't matter. That's what makes it good. Someone who can play every scale and mode at lightning speed over the most complex set of changes, but never SAYS anything - that's my definition of BAD.

    If you don't like the simpler stuff (dare I say mostly pentatonic stuff), I don't care - I love it. Blues and blues based rock are my favorite types of music. Most of that stuff is pretty simple, but it's all about the feel. Some have it in spades, some not at all. It may be beneath you but it'll never be beneath me. I can also really enjoy really complex and interesting jazz, as long as it communicates to me. Some does, some doesn't. I listen to the stuff that does, even the stuff that's difficult at first.

    Oh, and just to be directly on topic, LOTS of really technically more advanced players cite BB as a huge influence. I don't consider it a lapse at all. I consider it an indication of taste.

    -Ray
     
  3. Telenator

    Telenator Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    Let's not confuse what pentatonic means.

    The vast majority of players use the 5 most compatible notes in a scale in order to play their guitar solos. That doesn't mean they're playing a pentatonic scale. It just means that at any given moment they may be concentrating on just 5 notes. You can't play it all, all the time.
    Some use ONLY those 5 notes.
    Some will use mostly those 5 notes but will venture off into chromatic runs and other harmonic notes beyond the pentatonic to make more interesting expressions.

    I think the real rub here is that so many learn the pentatonic minor pattern as a short cut to playing guitar solos and stop the learning process right there. But it just doesn't work for all the ground they're trying to cover because there are instances where it is simply wrong. The notes just don't work against the chords you're trying to cover for very basic reasons.
    An inquisitive player will go about learning why. A lazy player will argue to the death that the pentatonic minor scale has some magic power that, in the right hands allow it to transgress the very pillars of basic musical knowledge.

    Many people defending the sole use of the ever popular pentatonic rock / blues scale as the sole essence of theirs and others playing, really don't have the understanding of what all this means. It makes it difficult to even carry on an informative discussion. It is simply indefensible and no amount of gut feeling, raw energy, wishful prayers or magic fairy dust is going to change that.

    The players many are citing as great "pentatonic players" are in fact playing well beyond that. Go ahead and cop some of their solos. It becomes immediately obvious. Very few people ever even mention that each chord type has it's own pentatonic approach. But many budding rock and blues players don't want to know about that. Instead they make all sorts of excuses to avoid having to learn. it. I used to teach. I know this to be true.
     
  4. Tonetele

    Tonetele Poster Extraordinaire

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    I really admire Mark Knopfler.
    Haven't got much to say about Clapton.
     
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  5. TokyoPortrait

    TokyoPortrait Tele-Afflicted

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    Hi.

    Just to make sure I'm not missing out on someone I've never heard of, you mean Julian Lage, right, not someone with the last name of Late?

    Thanks.

    Pax/
    Dean
     
  6. raysachs

    raysachs Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Yup, sorry. Auto-correct screws me up again. I think I spend more time re-correcting auto-correct than I would correcting misspelled words if it just highlighted them. But I still miss a few...

    -Ray
     
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  7. Wallaby

    Wallaby Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    +1

     
  8. EsquireBoy

    EsquireBoy Tele-Afflicted

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    Many players or songs bore me with musical complexity ; and many more players or songs bore me with over simplistic musical lines.

    Yep... these days I get easily bored when listening to music. I feel I need to be surprised by the progression or harmonies and moved by the melody at the same time to love the music.
     
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  9. bluzkat

    bluzkat Tele-Holic

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    A wise man once said, “Shut up and play your guitar.”. :cool:
     
  10. staxman

    staxman Tele-Holic

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    The older I get, the more I subscribe to the Beavis & Butthead School of Critique : "This sucks, change it!"
     
  11. Mjark

    Mjark Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    I don't ever think about it. But it's amusing you think Eric Clapton and Pete Townshend are musical simpletons.
     
  12. pi

    pi Tele-Meister

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    Does such hypothetical person exist?
     
  13. Wallaby

    Wallaby Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    Were I in your shoes - I'd start exploring emootionality and rhythm. There are so many things...

     
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  14. EsquireBoy

    EsquireBoy Tele-Afflicted

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    Funny you said that, because I’m listening more and more to African music (both traditional and jazz). Ali Farka Touré notably.
    The rhythmic patterns are indeed stimulating, and combined with nice and simple melodies it gives music that is both clever and visceral.
     
  15. Cesspit

    Cesspit Tele-Holic

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    I tend to like guitarists with feel and soul. The ones whose solos fit and are an integral part of the song.
    I play guitar, and I don't know what the scales are called, I just try to play what fits. Some sound bluesy, some rocky and some jazzy, who knows.
    Whilst I can appreciate incredible chops, for the most part they leave me cold, but that's just me.
     
  16. Nick Fanis

    Nick Fanis Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    I don't care about "guitarists".
    I care about "musicians".
    And all GREAT musicians care only about one thing: the FINAL RESULT.
    If it's great they don't give a hoot if it is achieved "simplistically" or in a complex technically demanding way.
    It either works or it doesn't.
    A tremendous local jazz guitarist and a fantastic musician once told me that his favourite guitar player in the world was...BLIXA BARGELD a guy who doesn't even know how to play " guitar'' (btw he is one of my favourites too).. because his MUSIC was so awesome.
     
  17. Jimclarke100

    Jimclarke100 Tele-Afflicted

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    Part of the issue I think is that music as a medium is itself intrinsically subjective.

    Is Trout Mask Replica good music? To the vast majority of people it’s an unlistenable mess, and yet it is claimed as a work of genius.

    So how do you measure good music; what is the musical equivalent of the Schoville Scale? Who is the world champion guitar player?
    They are nonsense questions of course it’s not measurable.

    Music can be complex and it can be simple. If you are enjoying it, it doesn’t matter. Whatever clever Trevor in the corner might think..
     
  18. stantheman

    stantheman Doctor of Teleocity

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    Ray! Ya done did it Guy!!!
    Julian Latte!!!
    I LOVE IT!!!
     
  19. JIMMY JAZZMAN

    JIMMY JAZZMAN Tele-Meister

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    Is complex better? Or does it show a true understanding and love of the guitar? Hey, alot of songs are
    3 chords and a cloud of dust, and others have 3 different scales in one song, but I'll always prefer what
    sounds good, great lyrics and maybe a catchy riff. Can't Get No (Satisfaction) wasn't brain surgery, but
    everytime I hear the song, I blast it, with a smile on my face.
     
  20. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Not me.

    My thread was responding to the other thread about players who only play pentatonic .

    In that thread There were folks who made it clear that they avoid all simple/simpler music .

    i posited the question To those folks of , what if one of the musicians you respect who play more complex/advanced music, Was also a fan of a musician who had a very simple approach ? Even revered them ?

    I brought up John Williams because he is/was a huge fan of both Townshend/Clapton - and has played with both.


    Then people started bringing up “oh, there are complex Who songs such as...”

    completely missing my garbled point ! :mad::lol::confused:
     
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