Paul Weller RIPS into the Cure front man Robert Smith

[boris bubbanov]

Smiths and Morrissey were too whiney and angsty and navel-gazey in a not-too-bright, obvious, heavy-handed way. The Cure, though sort of suffering from a similar set of maladies, were doing something new and interesting. Smarter, cooler, less “high-school sad boys”.

No.

 

[boris bubbanov]

Ah yes but Joy Division was formed by Hook in 76'
Cure didn't get together till two years later.

So I still attest Hook

Are we certain about this? I believe, I have some recordings of tapes that Robert did, going back to '76. Of course, even with the same blokes, they sounded entirely different.

I don't get it. Everyone stole from everyone else. The real "first" guys, never get mentioned at all.

 

[Dostradamas]

Are we certain about this? I believe, I have some recordings of tapes that Robert did, going back to '76. Of course, even with the same blokes, they sounded entirely different.

I don't get it. Everyone stole from everyone else. The real "first" guys, never get mentioned at all.

No certainty, just conjecture on a nostalgic era.
I have always been a Bahaus fan so Joy Division and the Cure were more peripheral to me.

 

[Micky Mojo]

Ever heard of a Wellend?

 

[cyclopean]

Is this surprising?

One is a massively successful, genre defining band of 40+ years. The other is a minor, mostly forgotten song that briefly hit the charts.

Both of those are huge, and town called malice is one of the best soul songs ever written.

 

[cyclopean]

Honestly though all of these early 80s bands are very, very different from each other and i don’t see much merit to trying to rank them.

 

[beyer160]

The Jam were a totally British phenomenon. Never made a ripple in America. The Cure had more of an impact here.

Yep, totally true. The thing though is that other than inspiring mopey teenagers to wear all black, the Cure were just one band of many who pedaled the same wares, and I can't think of one thing they did that wasn't done better by someone else at the time.

The Smiths are much closer to equal parts Marr/Joyce/O'Rourke/Morrissey than most folks want to admit. Neither Stephen nor Johnny have attained the same result since the band broke up. It is time for the public to see, Mike and Andy mattered a lot.

I tell people the same thing about CCR all the time. I'm surprised at the number of Robert Smith fanboys around here, but they're nothing compared to John Fogerty fanboys. Those guys do NOT like to consider even for a second that anyone else in CCR might possibly have contributed anything to that band, even though Fogerty has recorded nothing of consequence without them.

show me on the doll where Robert Smith hurt you

I'm just amazed at the number of guys on a guitar forum who feel compelled to white knight for one of the lamest bands of the '80s. He's sold millions of records, boys- he'll be OK.

Well, since we're just saying subjective stuff and pretending that 'wins the internet', the Jam are grossly overrated, only popular in the UK and can't hold a candle to the Cure. Oasis was a Beatles style band, not a Jam style band, no matter what Gallagher says.

I know Noel Gallagher spouts a lot of crap, but are you seriously going to disagree with him about who influenced his own band? Really?

It may interest you to learn that Paul Weller guested on What's The Story, Morning Glory?, which kind of illustrates the point. And Oasis sold more records than the Cure (in less than half the time), so by your logic they're clearly the better band.

With respect to influence--influencing a band in the UK is nothing compared to influencing bands around the globe. Worldwide success, like the Cure has, does that.

No, it doesn't.

I'm going to re-use an analogy from earlier in the thread, because it encapsulates the point perfectly: Herman's Hermits sold a lot more records than the Velvet Underground. Are you really trying to tell us that Herman's Hermits were more influential?

And the Jam fans are just loudmouths that will never be right, no matter how snarky and self-righteous they get.

What an odd self-affirmation.

i certainly won't be drawn on your lazy mcdonalds theory.

Of course you won't, as it proves your argument to be invalid. 30 million records sold is great for your bank account, but it means absolutely nothing else. The Bay City Rollers sold tons of records, Mozart died in debt.

The velvet underground get a pass from me because of how important Bowie says they were to him. He literally said No Velvetunderground / no David Bowie.

Fine . I love everything about David Bowie.

I’m glad he heard them when he heard them and they were so important to him, to influence him to make fantastic music.

By the time I myself, heard the velvet underground, they meant nothing to me.

Still don’t.

So what you're saying is, the Velvet Underground influenced you... albeit indirectly.

I wouldn't want to drive a Model T as my main mode of transport, but it influenced the car I do drive.

And having grown up in the shadows of Hitsville USA/the Motown house on grand Boulevard, I take massive offense at bands like the style Council.

I'd draw the line at "offense" because I do believe his ill-conceived foray into soul music was genuinely felt- I think he was trying to revive soul music for a generation that hadn't grown up with it, it's just that he was bad at it.

Maybe it’s just wallet envy ?

Pre-and post-pandemic the cure have been touring their asses off.

Playing, for the most part, way bigger places than Weller could ever play.

Kid Rock plays bigger venues than the Beatles ever did. And so it goes.

Smiths and Morrissey were too whiney and angsty and navel-gazey in a not-too-bright, obvious, heavy-handed way. The Cure, though sort of suffering from a similar set of maladies, were doing something new and interesting. Smarter, cooler, less “high-school sad boys”.

I see it totally the other way.

Though there was plenty of angsty navel-gazing in the Smiths, they could also be hilariously funny and their re-invention of guitar-based pop music in the synth age is something that's never really been duplicated. Johnny Marr is a genuine guitar hero from an era that eschewed such things. The Cure was always dour and humorless, and threw themselves headlong into the '80s synth sweepstakes with Depeche Mode and the Human League. Morrissey was always a prat and has become exponentially more so as time goes on, but he was always far wittier and a more deft lyricist than Robert Smith. I could probably stand being in a room with Robert Smith for five minutes, though.

 

[backporchmusic]

Good lord that was a long-winded misguided mess of ill-applied logic and a boring read, but you still haven't convinced anyone that Weller's not some sad little misguided man-baby.

It's like watching someone try to punch a ghost.

 

[msalama]

some sad little misguided man-baby

This he may well be, but he made some great music with the Jam regardless.

 

[archetype]

Sidebar : Supergrass is the second best Britpop band after Blur.

Listened to a “Best of” comp off of Spotify yesterday as I was tuck pointing a building and it was superb.

I had heard only one of the songs before. The rest was totally new and all really great .

Thanks E5RSY !

I believe this is the first reference to "tuck pointing" on TDPRI. You should win some kind of prize, but I'm not in charge of that.

 

[archetype]

Am kinda shocked at the amount of older folks who never heard of The Jam.

I'm an older folk and other than the words "The Jam," that band has never appeared on my radar. I've lived with music as an undercurrent in my life, been involved with various genres of music for the last 50 years, was apparently not dead when The Jam were playing, and am evidence that not all bands are visible to all people.

I'd say more, but it wouldn't be helpful.

 

[Linderflomann]

I don't care much for ranking bands, but I do enjoy a good insult. Hard to argue that Weller's are any good. He's fat and he wears lipstick? That's the best you've got?

 

[scottser]

Of course you won't, as it proves your argument to be invalid. 30 million records sold is great for your bank account, but it means absolutely nothing else. The Bay City Rollers sold tons of records, Mozart died in debt.

i can think of a dozen bands off the top of my head that cite the cure as a big influence, from coldplay to interpol, to my chemical romance, muse etc. you and your mcdonalds theory can jog on, you're fooling nobody.

 

[421JAM]

Both of those are huge, and town called malice is one of the best soul songs ever written.

Maybe in the UK. Town Called Malice, regardless of how good anyone might feel it is, is an obscure song to US listeners.

 

[Flyboy]

Bell ends, too.

Also......

 

[cyclopean]

the Cure were just one band of many who pedaled the same wares, and I can't think of one thing they did that wasn't done better by someone else at the time.

I’ve never heard anyone do an album that does disintegration better than the cure did, and Robert Smith is an enormously influential guitarist. I have a peavey musician on the way because of that album.

 

[cyclopean]

Maybe in the UK. Town Called Malice, regardless of how good anyone might feel it is, is an obscure song to US listeners.

I hear it all the time when i go out. More than I hear Motown or Stax.

 

[cyclopean]

i can think of a dozen bands off the top of my head that cite the cure as a big influence, from coldplay to interpol, to my chemical romance, muse etc. you and your mcdonalds theory can jog on, you're fooling nobody.

The cure are enormously influential. Partially because it’s easier to sound like them than it is to sound like the smiths. I love post punk and goth, and I can do a good impression of Robert Smith or Peter Hook, but I’d have to really work on it to do a good impression of Johnny Marr.

 

[cyclopean]

Entwistle

I don’t hear his style in post punk or goth at all.

 

[cyclopean]

Ah yes but Joy Division was formed by Hook in 76'
Cure didn't get together till two years later.

So I still attest Hook

I think it matters more if we knew if they were aware of each other or not. Outside of talking to primary sources, i don’t see how I’d figure that out.