P rails wiring

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by chiefline, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. TellaStrat

    TellaStrat TDPRI Member

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    Real out-of-phase "quack" mod for a Fender Baja Tele

    Hello blues guitar players,

    Not satisfied with the lame sounding out-of-phase "quack" in positions 2 & 4 with the S1 switch activated, here's the mod to get the real out-of-phase "quack" and get those trademark T-Bone Walker & Johnny Guitar Watson "nasal" sounding blues tones out of your Fender Baja Tele.

    Replace the 0,01 µF ceramic disc cap on the S1 switch with a wire, simple as that, the real out-of-phase "quack" in positions 2 & 4 is much better sounding after this mod. :lol:

    Quoted from mlormams
    Sept15,2009 tdpri
     
  2. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    It gets into electronics theory a bit, but the function of the cap is to change the degree of phase.

    When you swap leads, phase goes from 0 (completely in phase), to 180 (completely out of phase). This means that all the frequencies common to both coils is gone. Silence. What we hear is only the frequencies that are slightly different between the coils. No wonder the OOP sound is considered 'thin'.

    Capacitors are delaying components. The signal doesn't pass through immediately. Instead, it's a constant cycle of input --> charge the cap --> then discharge --> output.

    Imagine the sine wave that would show up on a 'scope for a normal guitar signal. Constantly cycling between the high and low peaks. Just like a vibrating string. Next imagine if you copied that sine wave, and slid it over by 180 degrees. Now when one is hitting the high peak, the other is hitting the low peak. Cancellation.

    Now, imagine if you applied a cap to only one of the signals. This delaying effect moves the shifts the sine wave so it's now 90 degrees out, not 180. So, when one is hitting the high peak, the other is halfway between the peaks. We no longer have complete symmetrical cancellation.

    That's your 'more body'.
     
  3. TellaStrat

    TellaStrat TDPRI Member

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    Well thank you for shedding light on my not so wonderful choice for the out of phase position. Based on what you said, I did some more reading and found that having 2 coils of a Humbucker out of phase would almost surely not be a great sound. Although my Prail coils are pretty different they sample the strings at almost exactly the same spot so each of their complex reactance (Xc=1/2pifC) would be similar and so the filter effect both would have in relationship to each other when out of phase (cancelling) might not be musical. So the bass strings more likely would be mushy and lack definition. The high strings might be prone to have nasty filter peaks and the signal overall would be pretty weak. But, on guitars like the Fender Baja, the Neck and Bridge pickups can be selected out of phase. That sound is usefully enough that Burton and others found it useful and Fender made it a standard feature on many guitars. So yeah, I see room for improvement there. So I should change one of the pickup pole selections for improvement on the sound.

    On the other hand, my guitar always has a pot on the bridge that blends in and out the bridges stacked coil. The blend doesn't take any poles. It's just always on the bridge making it vintage or fatter. The wonder in this is that more than likely the blend pot might be usable to tune the complex reactance (when used out of phase) so the cocked wah sound might become variable between more wah or more cocked. Either way I bet it would sound good.

    I have the Rail pickup of the PRAIL towards the neck so don't have to worry about stagger as the Rail gives a good even response. So shouldn't I redo the pole selection using the bridge and neck rail, instead of the close proximity rail and P90? I think their filter response might kill too much of the signal.

    Hopefully there is enough poles?
     
  4. TellaStrat

    TellaStrat TDPRI Member

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    All reading and swapping wires and after 4 years, I think I finally have the layout that makes the most sense for my guitar. First I need to go back and take the mega jump of using the 4 pole diagram above almost verbatim. Then I believe I may have enough poles to get the Strat and out of phase sounds. Here goes:

    S1 (UP).

    5. PRAIL Neck Coils in Series
    4. PRAIL Neck Coils in Parallel
    3. P90 (split prail)
    4. Rail (split) + Bridge in Parallel
    5. Bridge

    S1 (DOWN).

    5. Rail and Middle in Series
    4. Rail and Middle in Parallel
    3. P90 and Bridge in Parallel
    2. Middle and Bridge in Parallel
    1. Rail and Bridge in Series

    Notes:
    A. Mini toggle reverses phase of
    Rail coil and also allows Rail
    and Middle only in S1(2) Up
    and DOWN. In other words,
    adds Bridge in Parallel.
    (3PoleDoubleThrow switch)
    B. S1 switches P90 with Middle
    in (4) and (5).
    C. S1 switches Rail with Middle
    in (2).

    Yes? With the S1 and mini toggle as Well as the concentric blend pot and choice of pickups and a little help, hopefully I can get this thing completed soon. Trying to use the 4 way drawing and put in additions made me go back and basically just make the first 4 positions almost exactly like the diagram that was shared. Maybe that will make it easier if anyone would like to help .?
     
  5. TellaStrat

    TellaStrat TDPRI Member

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    I hadn't really wanted to use a mini toggle but it seems like using it to reverse the neck rail coil pickup was the best way to get out of phase as there are at least 2 pole choices with rail and bridge that should make good out of phase sounds. Hopefully I will be able to have 2 or 3 cap choices suggested. Also the mini toggle gives me the chance to get a couple of more last choice settings such as Rail alone and Middle alone. They are not heralded but I special ordered a custom pickup to take advantage of orienting the prail with rail close to the neck. That was reported to make the Rail more useful. Hopefully, it will sound just like a Tele with just a single coil neck pickup chosen when the Rail is selected.

    Then because of the blend pot on the bridge stack, there is a chance to change the filter circuit and possibly find an out of phase setting that will sound just right. There are also logical selections for Telecaster and quackish strat sounds as well as parallel and series humbucker which the Duncan PRAIL gets good reviews.

    Since I have oriented my prail in a way that should maximize its usefulness I can't wait to get the guitar finished to hear how it sounds. All I need now is a drawing. It even has strings on it already. I only need a control plate with hole for mini toggle (and a mini toggle) and 2 or 3 capacitors once I find out what value to use. Any help is sincerely appreciated.
     
  6. TellaStrat

    TellaStrat TDPRI Member

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    Oops!
     
  7. merseymale

    merseymale Tele-Meister

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    I hope I’m not hijacking this thread but it concerns different ways of accessing the different tones in this particular pick up

    At this following ancient link:

    https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/anyone-use-spin-a-split-wiring.335951/

    ...there is a cool circuit that that lets you have your ‘cake & eat it’ of a Tone control for your Humbucker AND a way of splitting your Humbucker WITHOUT bothering with Push/Pull Pots etc

    the only caveat is that the tone only works in Humbucker mode. All well & good but I have a Duncan P-Rails that radically changes just by splitting off the Single Coil Blade. So, my question is this:

    is it possible to have the ‘cake & eat it’ circuit BUT with the traditional Tone affecting only the Single Coil instead of only the Humbucker?

    thanks for your thought in advance!
     
  8. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    You're asking a lot. I worked on the original, no wait, the second spec list, for a few hours, and got hardly any traction due to the complexity. And then you keep changing the spec, which really doesn't help.

    You might get more help if you show us how you've tried and failed to make it work.
     
  9. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    No. It's only a single coil because of the grounded coil ends.
     
  10. TellaStrat

    TellaStrat TDPRI Member

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    Yes. I know that is my nightmare. Whenever I try to draw it out I get stuck. Then when someone does post a suggestion, it basically educates me as to why the way I'm trying to do it was not working. For instance, someone posted a question asking me what the S1 switch does. So I went back and looked and realized that I really didn't know. But, I knew that the one 4 way drawing was my best jumpstart. Namely, Screen Shot 2019-11-11 at 01.03.59 AM (1).png
    The problem was I do have a more complex layout and trying to adapt it without really understanding the S1 duties caused me to make it harder than necessary as I learned. I knew basically what combinations made sense sonically, but not entirely possible whether they could be implemented. So last night I figured out how to make the S1 do the most work. I believe it is to have it swap the P90 coil with the middle coil. That happens 3 times in 5, 4, and 2. If the pole choices are chosen a little smarter than what I was able to do it becomes a lot simpler. I think that is why some routines get named and many players put them into a whole lot of guitars.

    The thing about Nashville Teles is that middle pickup. It gets in the way they say. But when you lower it, it makes more quack but it's ugly. What did I do? I got a hot pickup with big flat poles and strong magnets and put it under the pickguard. One guy told me it wouldn't work. That's not true. The first Tele I built about about 6 years ago has an S1 and superswitch and the middle position on the Strat side has middle alone and even though you can't see it and it's not in the way. It sounds just like a 6k or 7k Strat middle. AND it's invisible. Because it's so far away from the strings it does not give stratitis and it is not Raunchy. It works quite well. So there are 3 or 4 sounds that I know work. On that guitar, I used a WRHB and I left parallel coils out and put one or two in that I won't include this time.

    But then again, the pickup I bought for this one is a Seymour Duncan PRAIL that I had custom made to be installed reverse. So I want to get the most out of it.
    20191119_120646.jpg

    I apologize again. I am learning as I go and as people post I take their advice. As I was saying earlier. Another poster's suggestion helped me to figure out a way to get the voices in an order that makes it so the S1 can more easily swap the correct coils.

    15931935921243212841528420921125.jpg
    So I did figure out I would need a mini toggle to make it logical. All 4 coils can be had individually. Both the signature things that should happen to Tales and Strats when the selector is in the middle are there. After this I will not change it again only, unless by slim chance this is not possible. Had to change one thing to make S1 work right.

    S1 (UP)
    5. Neck Humbucker coils in series.
    4. Neck humbucker coils parallel.
    3. Rail and Bridge parallel
    2. P90 and Bridge parallel
    1. Bridge

    S1. (Down)
    5. Rail and Middle in Series
    4. Rail and Middle in Parallel
    3. Middle
    2. Middle and Bridge in Parallel
    1. Rail and Bridge Series

    Notes:
    A. S1 swaps p90 coil with Middle. in 5., 4., and 2.
    B. Mini toggle "down" Drops bridge
    out in S1(up)3 and S1(up)2.

    C. Mini toggle "center"=normal
    phase.
    D. Mini toggle "up"= phase reverse
    Rail Coil.
    E. When toggle is "down" phase is
    still normal. Only reverse is up.
    F. Dropping Bridge in S1(up)3 and
    S1(up)2 gives Rail single and
    P90 single.

    I found a 9 pin mini toggle if needed, to get phase reverse and drop bridge with one toggle in a logical and easy to remember layout. Just not sure if
    I need (on-on-on) or (on-off-on).
    Dropping Bridge gets Rail and P90
    Single. Just need to get mini toggle right.

    I do understand about changing, but, I changed because it should more easily make it able to work. I was making it harder. Just adapting the 4 way and this phase reverse to S1, Humbucker, and mini toggle is complex but it should be easy to use and logical when finished. If you look at the previous 2 switch combos, as I learned, I only changed to make them work better and be more logical. I am doing my best. Please forgive me for the messiness but I think this final one will work. I will post a couple of my failures when I get home and hopefully this one will be a success. Here is a mini toggle drawing that might help and I will download pictures of my "Stealth Nashville" when I get home. Since it has been completed for a few years, I had a jump on getting my new " Stealth Tele" done. You cannot tell the pickup is under the pickguards because you cannot see it. But it sounds just like a normal middle pickup. After all, there are many pickups that have magnets and poles covered by plastic. EMG and Lace come to mind. Plastic has "0", "zero" effect on magnetism after all.

    Here is the mini toggle I want to combine into 1 mini toggle. Don't really have space for 2. phase-and-series.jpg
    This is for phase and series but I am assuming it could be used for phase and parallel on the 2 switch settings above mentioned. I did make my Tele side of the S1 Identical to the 4 way drawing except for adding in the bridge.

    Again I apologize for changing but I promise I'm just trying to get it to work. No more changes.
     
  11. TellaStrat

    TellaStrat TDPRI Member

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    159323394880835667431952286322.jpg
    So this guitar has 3 pickups and the WRHB neck counts for 1. I am proud of it because it is the first real guitar I have ever owned and although it is a partscaster a "Stealth Nashville" or just a Tele, I am proud because I put every screw, wire, or part in it. I did have a Luthier friend route it however. The WRHB is from Curtis Novak.
     
  12. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    OK, here's a diagram for you. I had to move a few settings to different positions, but it's got all the sounds you wanted. Also, I show the OOP and the Bridge ON/OFF on separate switches. Frankly I'm tired of looking at this, and I doubt you'll ever wire it up anyway, unless you have an enlarged control cavity.


    Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 03.28.02 AM.png
     
  13. TellaStrat

    TellaStrat TDPRI Member

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    Well I do have trouble making the Visio drawings and figuring out the schematic design wise. If my vision hasn't gotten much worse than when I wired the one pictured above, my first Tele, I should be able to do it. I guess the key is using the SLIM superswitch. And a lighted microscope soldering station. The regular superswitch does not work. It's too wide. I will not be able to use the HUGE safety isolation capacitor I added before because of the toggle. That is if I can make one toggle do the job. I have the switches already mounted and so I know they fit. The wiring just has to be really neat. 920D had a control plate with 2 concentric pots and 2 mini toggles and because they do neat work it works. Mine are not as neat as theirs but I try. Thank you for the time you spent on the drawing. Maybe someone else will benefit from it other than me. I am sure 10 years from now if I am still here and well into my 70s, I will still be here on tdpri. Probably not building. Because I am making good use and getting great satisfaction from these partcasters. Do you have some type of computer aid that helps with the paths or do you just figure them out by sketching and trial and error? Please excuse me for not knowing more about guitar circuitry design but it's never too late to learn. Even just to try to understand how it's done.
     
  14. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Yes, the ToneShapers narrow super switch is the only way to go on a Tele. But you have more than that going on here, and it WILL be a challenge to cram it all in. I've wired stuff like this before, quite a few times, but this one pushes the limit.

    Computer aid? Er, no. Just my brain... Series is always a wrench in the works because it requires lifting ground on one of the pickups, and moving a few more things around. Conditionally. You had some series on both sides of the S1 (up, down), and it was either impossible, or too hard, anyway, I quit trying and moved them all to one side of the switch. Thankfully Rail was one of the series pair in all cases. That's the one that got the ground lift, then. There are a couple of places where I was able to ignore the S1, for example Bridge pos 2 is active regardless of Up or Down. And pos 3 Middle.

    Those are just a few of the things that I think about while developing a plan.

    Re your OOP and bridge-OFF toggle, I don't think the OOP part is possible. Because you're combining both functions into one switch, you need a three position switch for two two-position functions. And you need the third (unwanted) position in each case to be something valid, not just dead.

    The only way to get even close is with a 4PDT on-on-on (I don't believe they make a 3PDT on-on-on, as the half-on bit is symmetrical across two poles, or four). In middle position, you want Rail in phase, and Bridge ON. In ... let's call it UP position... you need Rail OOP, Bridge ON. In DOWN position, you need Rail in phase, Bridge OFF. Bridge is easy enough, because the half-on function acts the same in two of the three positions, and you only need one pole.

    OOP is the difficulty. I don't see a way. Obviously it's trival to do OOP with a DPDT (or half a 4PDT). It's the three positions, with two the same, that's the problem.
     
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