P-90 spacing on a 25.5" scale build

[ericjruppel]

Hey y'all, I'm new to the community and working on my first build. I'm planning a walnut body with two Epiphone Pro Plus P-90 pickups, and I'm realizing how many decisions there are at every step! I'm planning to use a push-pull pot for my tone knob that will include both .02 and .01 capacitors, to allow for variety in the tone.

I just got the body shaped and rounded off (see image below, I'm in love!), and I'm trying to figure out where I want the pickups located. I thought it would be a simple "follow the template", but I see now there are a lot of potential options and tradeoffs, especially in the bridge pickup location. Most places I've seen recommend a neck pickup at around 5.8"-6.0" (~23.5% scale length), so I'm trusting that in general.

When I measure from the high-E bridge saddle to my Fender HSH strat's bridge pickup center line, I got 1.80" (7.06% scale length). The "Custom & Deluxe Bodies" PDF on Electric Herald has the bridge pickup at 1.60" (6.27% scale length) from the bridge. Looking around, it looks like a Les Paul Jr. has a slanted bridge so the high E is appr. 1.28" (5.2%) and low E is 1.60" (6.46%).

My tele has single-coils at 1.24" (high-E, 4.9%) and 2" (low-E, 7.8%), for reference, and a Donner thinline tele copy I have has the humbucker bridge at about 1.6" as well...

However, I'm curious because I've been talking with ChatGPT throughout this build and it has repeatedly suggested a bridge pickup at 3.1" (12%) because I'm using P-90s. Here is its response when I asked about the difference in spacing between its recommendation and the templates I see out there:

Why Strat and HSH Guitars Have Closer Bridge Pickup Spacing​

1. Stratocaster Design Philosophy:
   • Strat-style guitars typically have the bridge pickup positioned closer to the bridge saddles (~1.6–1.8 inches / ~40–46 mm) to capture a brighter, sharper tone.
   • This design accentuates high frequencies, which helps the bridge pickup cut through in a mix and balances the darker tones of the neck and middle pickups.
2. Humbucker Placement in HSH Guitars:
   • On HSH guitars, the humbucker bridge pickup is often similarly close to the bridge saddles to maintain a bright, focused tone.
   • Moving it further from the bridge might produce a warmer tone, but it could reduce the distinct "bite" associated with the bridge position.
3. P90 Templates Are Versatile:
   • P90s, especially in bridge positions, are designed to balance warmth and brightness. Many templates mimic Strat or Les Paul Junior designs where the bridge pickup is placed closer to the saddles.

---

Why My Recommendations Are Different​

The recommended ~3-inch spacing comes from considerations of tonal balance, harmonic response, and string movement:

1. String Vibration Amplitude:
   • Closer to the bridge, string vibration is smaller, reducing the pickup's output and focusing on higher harmonics.
   • Placing the pickup slightly further away (~3 inches) allows it to capture a fuller, more balanced tone without losing clarity.
2. Classic Telecaster Bridge Pickup Position:
   • Telecasters often have bridge pickups placed further from the saddles (~2.9–3.1 inches / ~74–79 mm).
   • This spacing gives the Tele its signature twang while retaining a full-bodied tone.
3. P90s and Warmth:
   • P90s excel at producing warm, punchy tones. Placing them too close to the bridge can make them sound overly bright or thin, detracting from their versatility.
   • Positioning the P90 around 2.8–3.0 inches captures a good balance of warmth and attack.

---

Tradeoffs to Consider​

Bridge Pickup Closer to Saddles (~1.6–1.8")	Bridge Pickup Further Away (~3")
Brighter, more cutting tone	Fuller, warmer tone
More focused high harmonics	Balanced harmonics
Classic Strat/modern rock tone	Classic Telecaster or jazzier tone
Less string movement, lower output	More string movement, higher output

---

What Should You Do for Your Build?​

The best position depends on your goals:

1. If You Want Strat-Style Brightness:
   • Use the 1.6–1.8-inch distance typical of Stratocasters and HSH guitars.
   • Great for high-gain or cutting, lead-focused tones.
2. If You Want a Fuller, Telecaster-Inspired Tone:
   • Use the ~3-inch distance to emphasize warmth and dynamic response.
   • Ideal for clean tones, Americana, or more balanced rock styles.
3. For P90-Specific Use:
   • Try a compromise distance around 2.5–2.8 inches (63–71 mm).
   • This keeps some brightness while allowing the P90's natural warmth to shine through.

What do you all think? Is ChatGPT hitting close to home, or full of crap here? Will a 3" bridge balance the tone better, or lose too much shine? I chose P-90s because I want a new sound and I've heard people rave about them, so I want to amplify (pun intended) all their best sonic features, but I'm also a novice and have never played P-90s before to have any point of reference.

Also, does anyone have sound samples for bridge pickups that are 1.6" vs. 3" from the bridge? I have two preschoolers, so I don't have a ton of spare time to make a sled and do a bunch of temporary wiring to try it all out... but I'm wondering if that's my only real option in the end, otherwise I'll just drive myself crazy thinking I should have chosen the other route (pun intended).

 

[Andymoon]

3" is darn near middle pickup position on a tele - and it looks like chat GPT doesn't know where a tele pickup is supposed to be.

This posting and line of questioning is both fascinating and frightening. As you can probably tell, I would lean more toward the traditional position. All things being equal, your typical P90 going to sound fatter/darker/warmer than a typical tele pickup.

Gibson did play around with location for single pickup P90 guitars in the 50's and 60's. Maybe you can find some examples of those?

 

[ericjruppel]

3" is darn near middle pickup position on a tele - and it looks like chat GPT doesn't know where a tele pickup is supposed to be.

This posting and line of questioning is both fascinating and frightening. As you can probably tell, I would lean more toward the traditional position. All things being equal, your typical P90 going to sound fatter/darker/warmer than a typical tele pickup.

Gibson did play around with location for single pickup P90 guitars in the 50's and 60's. Maybe you can find some examples of those?

Thanks, Andymoon! Any idea what those Gibson models were called?

And yeah... 3.1" falls just in front of a standard tele bridge plate, right inside the pickguard. It seems ... aggressively centralized

To be honest, ChatGPT has done a really good job summarizing and bringing a ton of different ideas to light for me in this project, but every once in a while, even my non-expert mind smells something fishy when it makes a suggestion like this.

 

[ericjruppel]

I just did a really rough look at the Fender Jim Adkins telecaster (P-90s) and tried to estimate where it lies on a 25.5" scale, and it was also around 1.5-1.6". It seems like consensus remains correct, and ChatGPT is hallucinating hard.

 

[Steve Holt]

If it were me I'd stop talking to chat GPT about building guitars and talk to us here on this forum. Chat GPT might have the sum of all human knowledge and be able to rattle off what sounds good in .03 nanoseconds, but there are limitations. For one I've built over 20 guitars now. That doesn't make me an expert, but it's 20 more guitars than Chat GPT has built. Here's what your telecaster will look like with pickups spaced like that. 3.1" for the bridge and 6" for the neck. It might be 100% right on how it will sound and how the position will affect your tone...but come on just look at that

Although...

Maybe it's on to something.

I'd still stick with following the advice of people that are actually building guitars over a machine that has legitimate difficulty identifying how many times the letter "R" appears in the word "Strawberry"

You've found this forum and there are plenty of expert builders here that are happy to jump in and help with any questions asked.

 

[schmee]

I think it's all about what you like in tone. Neck pups can get a bit muddy on some things, moving it a bit toward the bridge could clean that up a bit and still retain much of the neck tone. I'm surprised more haven't been built with a slanted neck pickup, the bass side more toward the bridge. I've always wanted to try a build with the bridge pup a bit closer to the neck as they are often a bit bright for me on the treble strings.... and why do they do the opposite, slanting the bridge pup so the treble strings are brighter? I'd want the opposite.

If just general placement is your desire, make the neck pickup poles at the octave, that's where Fender seems to have it placed..

 

[Andymoon]

Thanks, Andymoon! Any idea what those Gibson models were called?

ES-330T for one. I think there may have been a couple other semi hollow Gibsons as well.

 

[Swirling Snow]

I have pedals on the floor to shape my lead sounds. When I think of rhythm on the bridge pickup, I'm thinking of those opening chords in the Stone's "Brown Sugar". That would make me put the pickup pretty close to the bridge, as Gibson did in the '50s. You may have a different song in your head, but that's how I'd place it - based on the rhythm sound, and based on Gibson's placement. Fender pickups are a different animal, and where Leo put them has no bearing on placing a P-90, IMHO.

 

[Monoprice99]

I think from casual observations, the spacing is determined by the bridge system you decide to use. Generally ? The Telecaster is the 25.5, 2 pickup spacing, Strat the 25.5, 3 pickup spacing for those bridge plates & necks. The neck pickup would seem to be spaced accordingly & in relation to the heel of the fretboard/neck considering how many frets, the neck pocket length & overhang. And that's going to be relative to what fret the neck & body generally coincide. For a Gibson style TOM/ABR-1 saddle, even a single Lightning bar saddle/bridge stop bar that distance from the pole pieces of a P90 is relative for a 24.75 scale guitar, shouldn't be much different for a 25.5 scale guitar. Is there a hard rule ? I mean I've seen the single pickup guitars with that pickup closer to the neck, in the middle or even the bridge locations and sometimes those aren't even located to add a 2nd or 3rd pickup in the same equidistant pattern that is what might trigger the OCD for anyone.

Just one example of different locations. Take Airline's modern Jetsons/'59 2P ? a 25.5 scale neck, 20 frets, not 21, 22 or 24 frets. The neck pocket tongue starts at the 14/15th fret from photos, no fretboard overhang. That is going to dictate a different location for the neck pickup. The original Jetsons/'59 2P, same 20 fret neck, same neck pocket, but the scale length is 25 even like virtually every Valco guitar was a 20 fret template layout. And then there's the modern Airline Map that is 24.75 scale with 22 frets I think the Map originally was a National Glenwood/Westwood back in the 1960's ?

I guess the short answer is to stay safe with the Fender P90 locations for 25.5, which I would presume is a scaling of Gibson's P90 locations for 24.75 ?

 

[Freeman Keller]

My dual P90 guitar is very different from my single coil guitar

The single coil guitar has the pickups located per the TDowns plans at the top of the page, for the P90 guitar I used a short 3 barrel bridge and located the pole pieces of the bridge pickup1-3/4 inches ahead of the uncompensated scale location, with the neck pickup 4-1/8 ahead of that. The locations are purely arbitrary, I wanted as much separation as possible The bridge pickup is very close to the 24th fret location but again, that is pretty arbitrary. The pickups are perpendicular to the string line which pretty much eliminates any tele twang. (the single coil guitar definitely has the twang) The P90 guitar has a warm rich sound, more what you would think of from humbuckers. I find myself playing a lot of jazz and chord-melody songs, I finger pick it a lot. I also find that I play with the switch in the middle position, again that gives me more warmth than just the bridge.

When I first assembled the guitar I installed a four way switch but found that I really didn't like the series connection so I went back to a three way. You can decide if you want that.

And before I forget my manners, Eric, welcome to TDPRI.

 

[Telenator]

I'm a big fan of moving the bridge pickup further from the bridge than most. It sounds better to me when there is less space between the two pickups, and when there is less snap from the bridge pickup. Especially on a 25 1/2" scale which uses a higher string tension and therefore, has a brighter sound by virtue of the increased tension.

On my last build, a 25 1/2" scale, slightly over-sized Les Paul, the Bridge P90 is 1 7/8" from the bridge as measured from the center of the bridge to the center of the pickup.

The neck pickup is 4 1/4" from the Bridge Pickup as measured pickup center to pickup center. The neck pickup sits right up against the end of the fingerboard.

You may need to massage these numbers a tiny bit checking that there is sufficient clearance for the cutaway and the where the controls will mount. get all the parts and position them on the blank before doing any cutting.

I have found this layout to yield a very full sounding bridge pickup sound while being a good compliment to the neck pickup while using the same amp settings. I have played way too many guitars where the bridge pickup sounded great but the neck pickup sounded too dark and woofy when I flipped the switch from bridge to neck. So I would change the amp settings to get the neck pickup sounding right, and then the bridge pickup would be painfully bright. Getting the pickups a little closer together goes a long way toward getting a more balanced sound.

I would also highly recommend the Lollar Staple P90 for the neck position, and Lollar Hot P90 for the bridge position. The Staple pickup uses 6 separate magnets that give it great definition and clarity. The Hot P90 Bridge pickup balances very well with it and does all the great things you'd expect from a P90.

Hope this helps. Have fun!

 

[teletimetx]

Analysis paralysis, maybe?

The big question is what sound do you want?

Classic rock abounds with examples of bridge pickup p-90, right? Is that what you want?

Or do you want a slightly rounder, cleaner jazz sound?

If you look at at what most builders have done, the bridge pickup is closer to the, uh, bridge.

The Gibson ES-225 is sort of an anomaly- for the single pickup, Gibson stuck it pretty much right in the middle. Know what a middle pickup sounds like, pilgrim?

But for the dual version, it looks pretty familiar

There are no right or wrong answers here, just an effort to think about what you want.

And of course, the very classic single pickup Les Paul Jr.

 

[Boreas]

This "build" was based on a cheap Thinline copy that was routed for WRHBs. I didn't measure anything - just stuffed them in the best I could into the routs. Cheap, Wilkinson soapbars. This spacing resulted in a tone I am more than happy with, but will admit I am not very particular. I can supply measurements if you are at all interested.

 

[NoTeleBob]

Some ramblings… as a general rule, P90’s are going to be dark. So locating them closer towards the bridge will brighten them up a bit. However, a P90 bridge can get shrill at the same time, so it's sometimes further from the bridge.

Also, even in the 24.75 world, there’s a lot of variation. Epiphone’s SG Special guitars with P90’s tend to follow Gibson‘s original spacing. Gibson SG specials obviously had the original spacing, but then they moved things for a few years. Now they seem to be heading back to more traditional spacing. LP specials are different still, because they don't have the SG neck tenon to deal with. Then there's the Wilshires, etc, which tend to be the inbound placement.

1961 SG. Very inbound.

2016 SG, neck pickup higher, bridge lower

Typical modern Epiphone spacing

LP Special

 

[guitarbuilder]

I'd get the two pickups placed apart with consideration of the neck adjustment, the bridge, and bridge saddle adjustment. Towards the neck is fuller/bassier. Towards the bridge is more trebly. Consider that the physics of the string wavelength means that the harmonics and overtones will be moving as the note is fretted somewhere on the neck. If you look at a bunch of pictures, you'll see that pickups are placed all over the place and the magnetic field is too, based on the shape and size of the coil.

 

[NoTeleBob]

On the tone control... the only difference a .2 vs. .1 cap will make is the curve of the tone pot. Both will take you to the mud level. Both will give you as much bright as the pot resistance and pickup allow. Gibson/Epi often uses 300K linear volume pots with P90's, FWIW. I'd use 500K linear.

You might want to consider using the push-pull to change the tone control from a traditional treble control to a bass contour control. That will let you make the guitar a little brighter, which is probably what you'll want most of the time - especially coming from Tele singles, if that's your usual play.

Most use a 1 meg pot for bass contour, but it is a little harder to find a 1 meg push-pull. You could use a 500K and perhaps lower the bass contour cap value to cut more since the control will divert less through it.

 

[Beebe]

I have pedals on the floor to shape my lead sounds. When I think of rhythm on the bridge pickup, I'm thinking of those opening chords in the Stone's "Brown Sugar". That would make me put the pickup pretty close to the bridge, as Gibson did in the '50s. You may have a different song in your head, but that's how I'd place it - based on the rhythm sound, and based on Gibson's placement. Fender pickups are a different animal, and where Leo put them has no bearing on placing a P-90, IMHO.

My gut kind of agrees with you. But if I only got one shot at placing the pickup, I would probably try to pickup the movement of the strings of a particular scale length at a spot that sounded good to me on another guitar of that same scale length.

And also where I thought it might sound like this. Unfortunately I believe this is the 24.75 scale. Demo starts at 1:23

 

[idb6]

I suspect you may have already looked up information about string nodes and which harmonics are accentuated based on where a pickup is placed in relation to those nodes. If not, here are a couple quick sources.

pickup placement - Frudua Craftpedia

The placement of pickups along the guitar scale is one of the most influential factors of the sound of the bass and the electric guitar.

www.frudua.com

BuildYourGuitar.com :: Pickup Placement

My point is, as long as you're not listening to ChatGPT, and you're placing your pickup in a more-or-less normal bridge location, the tonality of that pickup isn't going to change tremendously whether you're 1.5" away from the saddles or 2" away--though physics can't lie and your tonality will be slightly warmer the further you place the pickup from the bridge. But will that slight change in positioning be perceptible? I don't have the answer, but I suspect barely to little.

Wernher Von Braun, controversial a figure as he was, is known to have said, "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions." Whatever thoughts one may have for the man, what he said is truth. If you really want to know, you'll build that test sled and find out for yourself.

Doing so may take precious time, but in the end, you'll likely not be left with a nagging question about whether you put that pickup in the "right" spot. Coming from a 40-something family guy who doesn't have much time to spare himself.

 

[ericjruppel]

Thank you all so much for the in-depth responses!

I really want to make progress and route these cavities and keep the build moving forward, but you all helped convince me to do the work and make sure I'm going to get what I want out of it. Over the weekend I agonized and researched and watched some YouTube demos of the models you all mentioned, plus some comparisons between models like the LP Junior vs. the new-ish Fender Noventa series. Of course, the signal chain matters on this stuff, and the pickups themselves are probably wildly different, in addition to the spacing. But you do what you can, right?

Trying to find specs online for all these models on spacing and scale length, and accounting for differences between Fender and Gibson standards... ultimately, it seems like the 1.6"-1.8" bridge spacing is common enough, so I was almost ready to phone it in and just take the average and start routing for a 1.7"-inch distance.

Buuut that research and the nagging doubts about differences in all the factors that cause tonal differences led me go ahead and build myself a sled. I've made myself some simple electronics before, so this was my first time wiring up pickups to anything, which was half my reservation to begin with... and my first test made sound! Which felt enough like a victory. And of course, the electronics on my other guitars caused interference so I had to assemble an old kit I never finished and the cavities don't fit. I'm going to have to run the pickups over the top of the strings and figure out how to play it with that in the way, but hey - at least this way I can test out the minute differences between 1.55" and 1.6" and 1.62" (or 3.1" ) or whatever and see where I like it.

I want this guitar to be DIFFerent than what I have on the stands already, but not just a one-trick pony; it's gotta be playable in average circumstances as well. I love the old classic rock P90 tones, and lots of old punk sounds, but I also really appreciate the jazziness and softer colors I've heard P90s offer. So I'm going to try to dial in a set of tones that can meet those needs as much as possible. I'll post some sound samples once I have a chance to do the comparisons, since I'm sure someone out there would be interested in hearing it, like I was.

 

[ericjruppel]

Although...

Maybe it's on to something.

One reason I've stayed off the forums (except as a lurker) is the old JRR Tolkien quote: "Go not to the Elves for counsel for they will answer both no and yes."

But I appreciate the alternate perspective! I'll try this kind of configuration out as well, even though I think my final configuration will probably stay more standard.