Over-driven tone after new 50's wiring and Seth Lover PuPs

[fred4321]

Hi,
I have a problem with my Greco LP and need some advice...
I recently bought a pre-made 50's style LP saddle (pots, PiO caps etc) and had it and a pair of SD Seth Lovers installed by a friend.
I was seeking the Seth Lover smooth and clean tones as demonstrated on YouTube and the SD site.
After installed etc, I get an over driven, high gain tone. Breaks up with the volume control at 2-3. Clean is not there even after adjusting the amp(Yamaha THR10, Vox Adio GT and Vox Pathfinder 10)

I needed to lower the PuPs to max to make it playable, but still its still overdriven.
Here is a pic of the resultant wiring.

Before I take t to a repairer (bad time of year) can anyone suggest what is going on.
cheers

 

[fred4321]

Just been talking to a few people and it seems that my SL's are doing what they are supposed to do.
Disappointing as I thought they would be creamy clean like in the demo's.
Looks like I'll swap them for the original (no name) PuPs the guitar had, which were clean sounding. I like to add grit to clean than trying to clean them up.

 

[Wallaby]

When you say the tone breaks up with the volume on 2-3, do you mean the amp volume?

The mid-range of the humbuckers might be what's driving your amp. You can lower the pickups a little and raise the pole screws a little to thin out the mid-range.

Any way, it's something to try.

Do you have other humbucker or PAF-equipped guitars that you can get your clean tone with?

 

[fred4321]

When you say the tone breaks up with the volume on 2-3, do you mean the amp volume?

No its the PuP volume.
I mostly run my amp clean.

Insane overdrive if I use any dirty settings (mind you for some players this could be ideal).

Had a casino and a LP Studio LT once that ran cleans through the amp, as well as this guitar before the upgrade.

I'll have another go at adjusting the PuPs but I think a leaner set of PuPs might be what is needed..

 

[old_picker]

SD 59's if you must use that outfit - there are plenty of high quality PAF style pickups out there.
I've used Mick Brierley's mostly - Martin A Smith makes a real nice PAF also
Tonerider Alnico 2's are a sweet set and great value for money - Dont know how many times I've used these and always surprised at how good they are.

Having covers on the pickups tames them down as well. I dont go for the aggressiveness you get with uncovered bobbins

 

[fred4321]

Great advice here. I will look again at adjustments etc and maybe my playing style.

Tonerider Alnico 2's are a sweet set and great value for money

Heard that as well from a guy at the local guitar shop.

 

[robt57]

Might be the un-potted nature of the PUs response you are not used to. Try the amp up a bit and the vol pots on the guitar 1/2-3/4.

Also lighter ga string, you did not say what you had on the git??

 

[fenderchamp]

Just been talking to a few people and it seems that my SL's are doing what they are supposed to do.
Disappointing as I thought they would be creamy clean like in the demo's.
Looks like I'll swap them for the original (no name) PuPs the guitar had, which were clean sounding. I like to add grit to clean than trying to clean them up.

Take the Guitar to a guitar shop and plug it into some bigger amps, like a deluxe reverb for instance, The Humbuckers should still goose it a little bit, but you have little tiny amps that verge on being toy sized, I wouldn't expect to find creamy rich, Les Paul goodness coming out of 2x3 speakers etc. I bet any of those three amps are little buzz-bombs. I wouldn't buy boutique PAF pickups to run them through the likes of those. Maybe put some EMGs in there and turn them way down, you'd probably get nice full range clean sound?

The amp is a much an instrument as the guitar, I think you need to be realistic about your expectations.

 

[fenderchamp]

Nice job on the wiring btw! It look real clean.

 

[tomasz]

Seth Lovers are fairly low output, as I recall. There may be few things going on here though:

The new pickups may be hotter that the old ones you had, or a specific frequency range is standing out as suggested.

The new harness may amplify that, because it may transfer more signal, pots may measure slightly different, so you get different frequencies poking through.

I personally tried a 50s wiring and resoldered it back to modern wiring, as I personally found it too fiddly. The way volume and tone pots interact, how volume drops, is something I couldn't get used to.

Your amp seems to be fairly low headroom though, if it drives at a low gain setting. Does lowering the volume on the guitar give you a good usable clean tone? Working the volume may be a handy feature of the new rig

 

[old_picker]

Fenderchamps post above re your amps are are pretty fair comment if maybe not what you'd like to hear. I believe you will have line out capabilities which could feed a DAW. That's where you might hear those tones you are after. Any low power amp given a kick in the guts with a healthy humbucker will bleed. Someone also mentioned the volume control - if you find it dulls off too much when you dial back the tone adding a bleed on the volume pots will help - smaller values will give smoother tops lower down. to me the .01 cap is too brutal.

 

[kbold]

Wiring is incorrect: go to Seymour Duncan website to see correct wiring.
Active out = Black, Green = Ground, Red and white get soldered together and isolated.

 

[fenderchamp]

Wiring is incorrect: go to Seymour Duncan website to see correct wiring.
Active out = Black, Green = Ground, Red and white get soldered together and isolated.

I think you might be mistaken, these pickups have metal braid 2 conductor wires, i.e the pickups are the metal wrapped wires with only 1 black insulated wire inside they are next to each other and at the bottom of the picture. the colored wires are coming from the switch. It looks right to me when I look at the picture and compare it to a schematic.

 

[Swirling Snow]

"Seth Lovers" are a faithful replication of the first PAF ever made, and as a result they are one of the weakest PAF style pickups ever made. Mid '50s magnets weren't so hot. We were only up to A2.

I have this feeling if there was anyway at all to get more "gain" from just changing the wiring, it would have been discovered already. Smart people have tried, monkeys have tried, everything has been tried by now.

Are you sure you have SD Seth Lovers in your guitar?

 

[Wallaby]

I don't get why the volume of the guitar is at 2 or 3, I hope the pickup heights were set with the guitar volume all the way up, amp at a medium volume, with clean and neutral settings, and no effects. Sitting directly in front of the speaker is important too. I've had furniture throw things off more than once, like that big soft couch next to my amp where I like to play.

SL's are on the low side of a medium wound PAF-style pickup like @Swirling Snow mentions. Assuming the A2 magnets are new and fully charged, those pickups should be pretty bright. Maybe too bright, and with noticeable edge.

That edge and mid-range honk is what might be driving the amp. It can take a while to dial them in so they sound clean and any piercing treble is tamed. Reducing any presence-type of control at the amp can help. Reducing the guitar volume slightly, like to 9 or 9-1/4 can help - just to the point of the treble falling off. The guitar tone control is really helpful.

I don't know what creamy and clean means when used together to describe pickup tone. PAF-style pickups have a raw quality IME, a bit like P90's in that they won't deliver a pure, clean tone like a Fender-style single-coil will. There's always a little edge and smear. They excel at pushing the amp with their frequency response and creating some girth and excitement in the mid-range, especially for chords.

You might be hearing their real voice and interpreting that as over-driven, and not necessarily liking it?

Here's a video of a knowledgeable person setting PAF pickup heights. You might notice the tone always has some clank and grit on the attack, even at its cleanest. It's in their nature.

 

[naneek]

Looks like I'll swap them for the original (no name) PuPs the guitar had, which were clean sounding. I like to add grit to clean than trying to clean them up.

Greco LP

Those stock Greco pickups are really nice, I think that would be a fine outcome.
The stock pickups in my Electra still sound great. People will sometimes pay a decent amount of money for these 'lawsuit era' japanese pickups.

about your problem though,

What amp are you using? I'm really not understanding how you could be getting 'overdrive' on the clean channel of a solid state amp like the vox pathfinder. I had a vox pathfinder 15 for a long time.

That's just unfeasible if you have the gain knob turned down, the boost switch off, and the overdrive turned off. You really can't 'drive' that amp. It won't break up without using the built in overdrive and boost controls.

Where did you buy the pickups? from seymour duncan or from somewhere else?

 

[fred4321]

Seth Lovers are fairly low output, as I recall. There may be few things going on here though:

The new pickups may be hotter that the old ones you had, or a specific frequency range is standing out as suggested.

The new harness may amplify that, because it may transfer more signal, pots may measure slightly different, so you get different frequencies poking through.

I personally tried a 50s wiring and resoldered it back to modern wiring, as I personally found it too fiddly. The way volume and tone pots interact, how volume drops, is something I couldn't get used to.

Your amp seems to be fairly low headroom though, if it drives at a low gain setting. Does lowering the volume on the guitar give you a good usable clean tone? Working the volume may be a handy feature of the new rig

I started to adjust the PuP heights and the poles etc as recommended with the replies. Managed to get a cleanish sound but still grainy, using the clean setting on the THR.
To make sure its not my imagination I pulled out the Tele and clean and smooth with the same settings.

I'm starting to think that my expecatations may be unrealistic, as I do love Tele cleans, and that is probably not a good thing to compare with.

 

[fred4321]

You might be hearing their real voice and interpreting that as over-driven, and not necessarily liking it?

You could be right. This was a hobby guitar as I wanted a LP style axe. Maybe LP/Gibson is not for me (fair enough)

 

[fred4321]

Where did you buy the pickups? from seymour duncan or from somewhere else?

Bought used via Eb-y. Has the labels markings of authentic.
The pickups in the Greco weren't original-they were a no name brand-with non-adjustable poles.

 

[Wallaby]

Man, that would be too bad after putting it all together!

I'd give it more time personally, and see what percolates out of the effort.

Maybe LP/Gibson is not for me