Out of Phase... question...

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by jkingma, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

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    JEEZ, After the opaque OP and the some sideways response s I was confused. Here's the jest of the OP.

    Any 2 p-ups sound good together. 3 or 4 don't.


    Lipsticks are low DC to start w. 4 in parallel are only a little more than 1 K ohms. There's your problem.

    I d recommend having different switches. Even if you don't want series, having 2 in series, in parallel w 2 others in series will have all 4 giving a signal. And the result gives the same frequency response curve as each p-up alone. So no thiness w a bigger, Fuller signal.
     
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  2. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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    What are you trying to say here?
     
  3. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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    As I mentioned earlier, I'm no electronics expert. Could you suggest where I might find a wiring diagram that illustrates this for me. I'm having trouble following you.
     
  4. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

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    Sorry for being brusk.

    Let me just be 100% sure. Any 2 are fine sounding. More, they sound thin. Correct ? That happens w Strats as well if one sets them up for all 3 at once. The signal keeps getting weaker and it's like using a 1 meg pot w a single because the combo needs less load than even the 250K normal pot.

    Are you not wanting any series combos ?

    Even if you don't, the all 4 in series/parallel sounds like one big p-up, not series since it's DC ohms, capacitance, and induction are the same as 1 p-up.

    Also from Strats , I think a 3 p-up combo w 2 p-ups in parallel then in series w the other sounds really clear and jangley, but strong and full as well. Best of both worlds.
     
  5. Ricky D.

    Ricky D. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Then it's not an OOP problem.
     
  6. Asmith

    Asmith Friend of Leo's

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    I could also whip up a quick diagram if you wanted but its best you make sure everything is is phase first. The guys are right that you only need to use one pickup for reference, a pickup can only have two phases. It would be nice if the guitar community could standardise the two to just up and down but oh well.

    Anyway lets say you take the bridge pup and test that with each of the other 3 pickups and find they're in phase that means the other pickups have the same 'phase' as the bridge. So if they have the same 'phase' as the bridge pickup then they all have the same phase and are all in phase with each other.

    The inductance thing is that lipstick has ab inductance of about 1H stick 2 in parallel and that halfs, stick 3 in parallel and then its a 3rd of 1H and so on. To put those numbers into perspective a normal single coil (strat/tele) has something closer to 3H and a HB is around about 4H. (Those values can vary massively depending on the actual pickup model) Basically the more inductance generally the more output a pickup will have and the darker itll sound.
     
  7. edvard

    edvard Tele-Afflicted

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    Do a "Pull-Off" test; set only one pickup on, and connect an analog voltmeter to the output. Lay a screwdriver or similar hunk of ferrous metal on top of the pickup and quickly pull it off. Observe which way the needle swings (it doesn't matter which way, at this point). Do the same for the other pickups. If any of them swing the other way, swap the leads on that one pickup. That will ensure your pickups are all the same phase output.
    After that, take a compass and hold it edge-wise over the top of any pickup. Observe if any of the polarities are different than the others. Take a mental note that any two pickups connected together that have opposite polarity magnets but same phase output will be humbucking, and two pickups with same polarity magnets but same phase output will not be humbucking.

    If that doesn't eliminate the problem, then it may come down to the simple audio/electrical interactions between each pickup.
    1- Each pickup will have slightly different frequency response due to the internal resistance/capacitance/inductance of the coil, and no two are going to be exactly alike. Summing them together is even more complex.
    2- Each pickup will be picking up different frequency content from its position under the string; due to how any given string vibrates with harmonics, you may be picking up "down" swing from one pickup and "up" swing from a different pickup position and even though the pickups are in phase, the signals won't be. This is how the "quack" positions work on a Strat. More than one pickup summing all these harmonic shenanigans can get complex.
    3- When connected in parallel, each pickup will see the resistance of the other as a "load" along with the volume pot. So more pickups means more interaction and possibly higher load than the extra signal can make up for.
    The best way to deal with #3 (and the electrical aspects of #1) is to isolate each pickup from the others via an active electronic system into the guitar, with each pickup connected directly to its own device (op-amp stage or FET for best impedance) and summed together in front of the volume control. That won't completely eliminate the effects of #2 and the frequency anomalies of #1, but I also think those considerations are of less importance than #3. If you'd like, I can draw up a schematic for you.
     
  8. Asmith

    Asmith Friend of Leo's

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    I was going to mention that last point in my last reply but wasnt 100% if other pickups load down other pickups in parallel. Anyway I did the maths to find the impedance of a lipstick at 1kHz, assuming the DCR is 4k and the inductance is 1H would have the impedance at 7.5k ohm. So if edvard is right then each pickup is being loaded down by 7.5k ohm (plus the pots which would be insignificant anyway) when just 2 are in parallel. When 3 in parallel it would be around 3k with the vol and tone. For a typical tele bridge pup the impedance at 1kHz would be more like 20k ohm. Its a very substantial difference and could easily explain a weak signal.
     
  9. edvard

    edvard Tele-Afflicted

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    With pickups, the effects of loading are kinda mitigated by the fact that the other "load" is actually producing signal too, which explains why humbuckers wired in parallel still work quite well. Add more pickups, and logic says the electrical resistance gets low enough to start making things go awry.
    That said, 3-coil pickups have shown up here and there in the world of guitars and the tone has been said to be quite usable, but the extra routing sways most people away as well as having the ridiculous visual gestalt of 3 coils in one. Some examples: the Mighty Mite 3-coil "Motherbucker", the "Tri-Force" pickup on later Alvarez Dana 'Scoop' guitars, Fender's Modern Player Marauder, Hamer 'Prototype' (later 'Phantom Custom' and 'Phantom A5'), and the Ibanez 'IC210'. Many of those have the pickup wired like a series humbucker paired with a single-coil; kinda like a HSS strat in Bridge+Middle position, but a LOT closer.

    Interestingly, that particular model Ibanez was used by Steve Miller, and you can hear it on "Fly Like An Eagle". Nice tones, that...
     
  10. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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    This is all way over my head...

    I think I might find someone locally who can help me with this. Or just live with it...

    Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.
     
  11. radiocaster

    radiocaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    Out of phase means reduced bass, so when you turn on your bridge (or in your case 2nd bridge) pickup by itself, you get more bass with it by itself than in combination with the neck or/and the pickup below the neck pickup.

    If not out of phase, turning on the neck pickup(s) in combination with one of the bridge pickups will give more bass than with one of the bridge pickups by itself.

    If you are not referring to hum cancellation, that's a different thing.

    Also, you might want to look at those stickers on the back of the pickups, I think they denote the model but are too small to read in your photo.
     
  12. ricknbaker

    ricknbaker Tele-Afflicted

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    I think I'd give up at this point and buy an Esquire or an LP Jnr.
     
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  13. Asmith

    Asmith Friend of Leo's

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    If what me edvard and teleterr said is going over your head just ignore it. Just do the switching with the 2 pups at a time and use your ear to see if they're in phase. If one is out of phase with the others swap the hot and ground wires around on that pickup.

    All that mumbo jumbo about inductance, impedance, etc. Just means that single coils just dont sound nice when more than 2 are in parallel especially lipsticks.
     
  14. jvin248

    jvin248 Poster Extraordinaire

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    .

    Use an ohm/volt meter clipped to the end of an output cable plugged into the guitar.




    You might try the Teisco wiring method, putting all pickups in series whenever two or more are on at the same time. Random internet wiring image.

    [​IMG]

    I recently revived a Teisco Tulip (thread) but that is only a two pickup guitar -- however the switching is either pickup on alone or in series when both are on.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  15. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

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    Do you want just parallel ? Or did you go w easy wiring ?
     
  16. warrent

    warrent Friend of Leo's

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  17. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I went with easy, not knowing ahead of time what the result would be.
     
  18. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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    That would be ideal. The challenge being find the proper switches that will just drop in without me having to make a new pickguard. I've got room to add the extra small switch somewhere.
     
  19. jkingma

    jkingma Super Moderator Staff Member

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