Orange Crush 35RT Speaker Buzz?

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by FenderGuy53, May 27, 2018.

  1. Jakedog

    Jakedog Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Except a much better cabinet, better components, a better speaker, and a LOT more R&D hours.
     
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  2. markal

    markal Tele-Holic

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    I don't think that's true. I have and LOVE a Blues Cube Artist so I'm not trying to knock down these amps. Roland would like us to think they're not digital, but they must be. It's the only way to explain the tone capsules (and I have one of those too). See this:

    https://ausgeflang.wordpress.com/2018/05/06/roland-blues-cube-artist-review/

    And posts from @Blrfl in the Blues Cube Owners thread.

    I think the difference is that the BC amps don't model a sound directly, but instead they model individual components and stages of a tweed tube amp, some of that with digital components, some of it with analog.

    It the end, I don't give two sh*tes cuz it sounds great.
     
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  3. luckett

    luckett Banned

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    The perception of better quality created by positioning the product at a higher price point doesn't require the parts to cost more.

    And there is no reason it would take significantly more time to develop the BC than any other analog SS amp. There is no magic inside.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  4. FenderGuy53

    FenderGuy53 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Right you are, markal. My apologies (I'll try to edit my comments in the other thread).

    I just gleaned the following directly from Roland's website:

    In the Blues Cube, the preamp section uses a high-impedance FET input and a differential transmission method to preserve the pure guitar signal as it travels throughout the circuit.

    The power amp section consists of a discrete solid-state amp, driven by a high-impedance circuit to interact with the speaker characteristics, another essential part of great guitar tone. This amp-speaker interaction is fine-tuned with DSP for very precise adjustment.
     
  5. FenderGuy53

    FenderGuy53 Poster Extraordinaire

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    You're right, Guitandanza. Regarding the Blues Cube Hot, I gleaned the following directly from Roland's website:

    In the Blues Cube, the preamp section uses a high-impedance FET input and a differential transmission method to preserve the pure guitar signal as it travels throughout the circuit.

    The power amp section consists of a discrete solid-state amp, driven by a high-impedance circuit to interact with the speaker characteristics, another essential part of great guitar tone. This amp-speaker interaction is fine-tuned with DSP for very precise adjustment.
     
  6. markal

    markal Tele-Holic

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    Which probably explains how the tone capsules affect the overall voice and the breakup and headroom characteristics: it’s working on the power amp section.
     
  7. blackjaw

    blackjaw Tele-Meister

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    I’ve had mine for almost 3 years now...no buzz
     
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  8. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Holic

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    I'll try not to drag this thread too far off topic; anything further we can cover in one of the existing BC threads or a new one. I'm also the author of the BCA review linked above.

    No amplifier that takes low-level audio from an analog source and makes it into a louder analog signal can be 100% digital. (I'll get to why that doesn't contradict what I said in the other thread in a minute.) The signal at the input jack is analog, preamplification is an analog process as is the conversion to digital before the DSP gets hold of it. Once the DSP is done, the conversion back to analog, power amplification and conversion into physical sound are all also analog processes.

    What they're telling you here is that the analog parts of the signal path use the same transmission method as the lines you find on microphones and balanced line-level equipment in professional settings. Instead of sending the signal down one line, it's sent down two lines with one copy inverted. At the other end, the inverted copy is flipped back to normal and recombined with the non-inverted copy. The net effect is that any noise added to both signals is canceled out. Differential transmission is used when the integrity of the signal is important but it has to pass by something that's spewing analog noise. The signal processor is a computer, computers spew noise, and this is a way of combating it.

    Again, same thing. The make-it-loud part has to be analog. What I was getting at in my comment in the other thread about BCs being all-digital is that the analog parts of the circuit have enough headroom that they're not contributing much to the color of the sound. That's the complete opposite of how a fully-analog amp works where you're trying to run it out of headroom to get "that sound."

    Ideally, what you'd want to do with an amp like the BC is characterize the behavior of the analog and physical parts and put code on the DSP that compensates for them. The goal is to make the chassis flat, meaning what comes out is as close as you can get to what came in, only louder. A flat chassis puts all of the control over what it sounds like in the software, where you can emulate tube circuits and have them come out sounding something in the neighborhood of right. I wouldn't be surprised if some part of the speaker's tone is being driven by a software model like the cabinet emulations on the line and USB outputs.

    --Mark
     
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  9. Jakedog

    Jakedog Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Ok. If you say so.

    Take them apart. You'll see the difference in cab and components, it's no secret it's a more expensive speaker.

    And no, there's no "magic", but it is an entirely different amplification platform. They're not really comparable.

    In 15-25 years, the Cubes will still be working, and repairable cost effectively.

    Inside of ten years pretty much ever Katana alive today will be in a landfill.
     
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  10. luckett

    luckett Banned

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    I've taken apart and repaired many amps. What is perceived to be a more expensive, value added component like a speaker or cabinet wood adds a very small difference in manufacturing cost. At a wholesale level, you can get speakers for probably around $10, a sheet of ply about $5. A "premium" speaker and cab wood might add about $5-$10 to the production cost of an amp.

    As for the electronics, a typical analog SS amp doesn't really have any high cost components other than the transformer and most SS amps are using the same basic components. The components cost is so small that some PCB manufacturers will price based on the number of parts on the PCB rather than what the parts actually are (as long as there are no specialized high cost components like DSP chips). A populated analog SS PCB will cost you around $5-$10. The cost difference between the PCB in two different SS amps will be minimal.

    If you actually look at all of the individual components in a SS amp and determine the range of costs of those components, you will realize they are all very cheap to manufacture and because one may have a higher retail price, it does not mean that it was significantly more expensive to manufacture.

    The real difference in price comes from the skill of a good marketing dept. that can convince the consumer that they have a premium product.
     
  11. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Holic

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    The number on the price tag reflects more than the cost of buying the raw materials, assembling them into a product and shipping it to a retailer for sale. Most products have some amount of non-recurring engineering (NRE) costs to get from an idea to something that can be manufactured and sold. Smart businesses don't absorb the NRE as overhead, they build it into the wholesale price based on the number they think they can sell. Spend $1M on NRE for a product that costs $100 each to manufacture but manufacture just one and it'll have to sell for $1,000,100 just to break even. Manufacture a thousand (ignore the economies of scale), the development costs get split a thousand ways and the price drops to $1,100 each. Manufacture a hundred thousand and it's $110.

    Compare that to dirt, which has almost zero NRE. Nobody had to figure out how to formulate and produce dirt from raw materials. No designer had to be hired to make the dirt look attractive. There were no safety certifications. Dirt doesn't have to be loaded with software to work. The costs for dirt are almost entirely in manufacturing: land containing dirt, labor and equipment to dig up the dirt and dirt bags to hold the dirt while it's on the way to Dirt Depot to be sold. You can make objective comparisons between Brand X dirt and Brand Y dirt and decide that all other things being equal, Brand Y is charging a premium for reasons not related to production.

    --Mark
     
  12. luckett

    luckett Banned

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    Yep, that's why I specifically said the cost to manufacture is not significantly different for those SS amps. Even if you consider engineering costs, these are simple analog SS amps that don't need a huge amount of development. Especially when it falls within the core competency of a firm that has a long history of developing SS amps and has lots of prior intellectual property that can be utilized.
     
  13. beninma

    beninma Friend of Leo's

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    Some great posts here.

    If you buy any electronic components for your hobby projects you'll get just how cheap some of this stuff is for the factories.

    I'm building some electronic drums right now out of a Rock Band (video game) drum kit.

    I needed some resistors.. I got 1000 of them for $8 including shipping. 25 each of 40 values. Probably near a lifetime supply for my uses.

    When I looked at some of this stuff the costs were like this:

    10 for $5
    100 for $6
    1000 for $8
    10000 for $12

    Most of the stuff on that PCB is near free to a factory that deals in huge #s.
     
  14. Guitandanza

    Guitandanza Tele-Meister

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    When all is said and done, the Orange CR35RT is a real nice amp. Sounds splendid, especially clean. I like that it’s a closed back design, unlike the 60 and 120(which also weigh more than I’d like). It’s responsive and plenty loud. So there.
     
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  15. markal

    markal Tele-Holic

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    I agree. To each his own, but I think the 60 sounds even better because of the open back, larger speaker and larger cab. But, bottom line, the Crushes are great amps.
     
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  16. FenderGuy53

    FenderGuy53 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Counting on it, Guitandanza.

    Mine was supposed to be delivered yesterday, but the temp FedEx driver couldn't findl us on his GPS!

    For Pete's sake, FedEx, use Google or download new maps!
     
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  17. markal

    markal Tele-Holic

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    I finally listened to the videos. Never had that problem with the 35rt or the Crush 60 combo. Sounds like they’ve had some speaker quality issues.
     
  18. coolikedat99

    coolikedat99 Tele-Meister

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    I've had the speaker buzz problem.

    I was able to temporarily fix the issue by stuffing a hand towel between the speaker cone and frame (whatever the technical terms are).

    It only started acting up on mine after I'd used it for nearly two years. It's a great amp and it wouldn't be that expensive to buy a new 10 inch speaker if it does end up crapping out eventually.
     
  19. FenderGuy53

    FenderGuy53 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Well, my Orange 35RT finally got here yesterday!

    Got it out of the box and onto the amp stand, but haven't had time to plug in yet.

    She sure is pretty - and weighs nuthin'!
     
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  20. Guitandanza

    Guitandanza Tele-Meister

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    I had a speaker buzz at low volume only. After a week it went away. That was 2 years ago.
     
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