Opinions requested! (is my 5E3 sounding right?) (distorted clips inside)

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Hello all! I was hoping the best amp community in the world could help me out.

I wonder if my latest build is correct. The voltages are all within spec (5-10% lower than what Fender says though). It's a 5E3 that I built from parts of a kit using old transformers. The PT is wired for 240VAC which probably accounts for the slightly lower voltages. The OT has 204 and 205 Ohms between the CT, which is soo close. Is that weird?

Anyway, what I want is you people and your experience on how my amp sounds. Is it right? I know the 5E3 distorts a lot, and the cathodyne has a certain sound. So I just want to know what you guys think? I've attached clips. Because I'm in an apartment, they are HEAVILY attenuated. Be advised. I am curious about the "raspy" sound that decays very instantly. It's there, then it goes away fast.

Here are some specs you might be interested in:

I did the heaters like on a blackface Fender, I was a fool and didn't look at 5E3's...
The first clips are with JJ preamp tubes, NOS Philips 5Y3, and EH 6V6''s (biased at about 90% both)
The last clip I put in NOS Brimars in the preamp and PI

With all that taken care of, on to the clips ! I wonder if the "paper raspy" thing I'm hearing is expected? I have almost no experience with this circuit. If it is correct then I'm fine. But I don't want a faulty amp, so I have to ask.

You can mostly hear what I'm talking about on the decaying notes, like a thin raspy distortion.

Clip 1: Tone on full, Bright Vol on 3:


Clip 2: Tone on full, Bright Vol on full:


Clip 3: Tone on full, Bright Vol on full (Brimars):


What do you think? I can't crank this amp naturally in the apartment, so the clips I posted are attenuated to speaking levels. Maybe that is important info?

I REALLY appreciate any help I can get

 

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Image 323699069-449063997438503-3468221381836886481-n hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

 

[cobaltu]

Honestly, It sounds great to me. I think that 'raspyness' your hearing is kinda normal, especially with the tone knob way up (more tone knob means, more highs are being driven into the circuit, meaning more high frequency clipping, i.e. "raspy"). I'm assuming you did that because the attenuator was being used so much.

What are your preamp cathode resistor values? It's a bit hard to see the colors in the photo.

What speaker are you using?

 

[King Fan]

It sounds good to me too. Sort of kidding, but is it too good?

I could be wrong here, but that's fairly clean 5E3 dirt. I don't play my 5E3 with both volume and tone maxed very often, and if I did, I'd need some heavy attenuation to keep it quiet, which in my setup at least would alter the sound.

OTOH, where did you have the other, inactive (Normal) volume set? Setting it high (9-11?) is a classic trick to make 5E3 dirt less raucous.

If you can find a place to play without attenuation, try some mid-value settings (bright volume 7-12? normal (inactive) volume 6-9? tone 5-9?) -- it should still get pretty dirty.

I'm not sure about the rasp you're hearing. FWIW Rob's 5E3 mods page describes an easy fix (add 470k resistor to V2 pin 7) to tame nasty, raspy 'blocking distortion'.

 

[Lowerleftcoast]

I wonder if my latest build is correct. The voltages are all within spec (5-10% lower than what Fender says though).

From the clips... with attenuation, it sounds OK.
What speaker are you using?
Are you using a 12AY7 in V1? This makes a difference.

@King Fan mentioned Blocking Distortion. I am not hearing it on your clips. It could cause "the "raspy" sound that decays very instantly" you are hearing when the amp is nearing "All the way up".

The *off* channel volume rotation allows more signal to ground as it is turned up. Volume set at *10* to *12* on the *off* channel results in some odd distortion sounds to my ear.

I see a 270 Ohm cathode resistor on the power tubes. With 10% lower voltages than the 57 Deluxe schematic, chances are the bias is less than 100%MPD. Imo, that 90%MPD could change the *5E3 sound*.

The OT has 204 and 205 Ohms between the CT, which is soo close. Is that weird?

This depends on how the OT is wound. What is even weirder is the Fender Blues Jr/Pro Jr have 100 Ohms consistent enough that Bill M would check bias without measuring the resistance.
The OT primary impedance is an important factor for 5E3 distortion. OTs with 6.6k primary impedance are often sold for 5E3s but it requires 8k plus for the tweed sound.

I did the heaters like on a blackface Fender, I was a fool and didn't look at 5E3's

No problem wiring them up and over.

 

[D'tar]

Sounds like a tweed deluxe from here! Congrats

this is worth a watch for those who have not seen yet....

5E3 Deluxe Owners Club

Hey all you Tweed Deluxe Afflictcionado's ;) We have all seen this right.... Well, In my morning browsing of the WWW.... I came across this which is now my new "go to" to help others with the thought of a Tweed Deluxe as a "one trick pony".... Enjoy!!!!

www.tdpri.com

 

[jsnwhite619]

What is your B+ voltage? I think most Deluxe PT's are for 330v-350v range, so, that is going to make some difference I would think.

Also, I know attenuators are handy, but if you have a 5E3 attenuated down to conversation volume, I imagine you're going to be able to hear all sorts of nasty/fuzzy distortion that you probably wouldn't be able to hear at full volume. You may be hearing phase inverter fuzz & distortion if you built the amp completely stock.

 

[Peegoo]

That sounds really good; fairly low self-noise (hum/hiss) even with the volume all the way up. Nice build!

That raspiness is probably due to the attenuator.

 

[Ricky D.]

Sounds right to me.

 

[CirrusBand]

Volume on max? Yeah, the sound gets fuzzy/ buzzy up there. The biggest, highest gain distortion sound on my clone comes at around 9 or 10 on the vol control. From there up the 12, the sound turns into an exploding, fuzzy mess and I think that's blocking distortion, which a; is typical of the circuit and b; is very cool sounding.

And yes tone on max will exacerbate it. Brightest tone setting is around 9 usually, from there it's just more gain.

 

[pfarrell]

I think your amp sounds awesome. Congrats.

5E3 was my second build and it gets the most use at the moment. Recently had some serious fun with the 10% power switch mod engaged, maxing regular volume, maxing guitar volume then just turning up the master volume (also a mod) a bit to get full crazy distortion at room volume levels. WOW. Didn't sound raspy or weird at all—but yes—not at all clean—could it be this blocking distortion? IDK—but it sounded great. I really didn't know the amp could do that without a pedal or having to take it outside and max it all etc.

 

[Uffepungen]

A big thank you for your time! I'll try to answer the best I can Listening to clips on youtube of other 5E3's, I'm starting to think it sounds normal.

Also, I saw that my clips went away after 24 h, if anyone in the future reads this thread and want me to, I'll upload them again.

- Preamp cathode resistors: 820 on V1 and 1.5K on V2 (measured within spec)
- Speaker is a Weber Alnico silver bell 12" (mounted in a Princeton Reverb build)
- I purposefully set the amp to get "raspy", so I had the NORMAL Vol on "0". I can get a very clean sound with the NORMAL cranked and the BRIGHT on about 3.
- I used a 12AX7 in V1.
- Very interesting regarding the bias. My 90% MPD is with borrowed EH 6V6's from a Princeton Reverb build, another set I tried landed me on an unmatched 80% and 109% MPD. It hummed more and sounded worse IMHO. Would the last 10% in bias make a difference you think?
- 6.6K vs. 8K OT primaries, how can I check this? I get resistances that are far from that, can't it be measured in circuit?
- B+ is at about 340VDC (I don't have the exact number now).

I should say that I don't want to mod the amp to get rid of it, I just wanted fresh sets of ears to judge it . Because I'm not confident in my own judgement really, and I was afraid it would be an oscillation/signal coupling thing. I built a JTM45 as a teenager, and it took a long time for me to realize that the distorted sound was wrong. After looking for fails for a while I concluded that it was a wire dress issue (I think it was the prescense wiring), after I shortened a wire it sounded better. I wanted to avoid something similar here

I just played the amp without the attenuator, just clean. It sounds VERY nice, full and sweet. I think I'm gonna make a head out of this amp, and use it with either a Weber 12A125A Alnico that I have in another amp, or the Weber Silver Bell I used for these clips.

Something I thought about doing this build is how crowded the chassis became. This is the simplest circuit I've ever built, but it was kind of more difficult to build than my Princeton Reverb or JTM45, because they have so much space. But I'm always trying to learn, and this was a great experience.

Another thought: the Standby switch is, judging by what I've read, not needed. I'm thinking about putting a PRE PHASE INVERTER MV there instead. But I'm afraid of introducing more noise? Could I use shielded cables for it? The amount of 50 Hz hum I have now is acceptable, but it could be better I believe.

I TRIED to use best practice when I wired this amp, but I'm not very knowledgeable. I tried to seperate the grid wires from the plates, and to keep the AC in the left part of the chassis. Any other tips from you people? The OT wires are pretty close to the signal wires on the 6V6 sockets, is that bad?

Lastly: I'm using 6V6's stolen from another build (EH) right now. I remember I thought they sounded miles better than an old pair of JJ's I had. But these EH tubes are almost 15 years old, and I've read that this brand is not good anymore. Do you guys have any tips what I should buy for this 5E3? The current EH's have to return to my Princeton Reverb at some point.

Holy crap that was a long post, thanks to anyone who gets through

 

[pfarrell]

Pre PI MV is what I did per @robrob layout. My build is freaky quiet (pictures of a couple of 5E3s here), and yes I agree it's hard to work on due to space compared to some other more complex circuits. I also deleted the standby switch and replaced the hole with an NFB switch which is very effective on this amp. The NFB runs are the only place I used shielded cable. Also play around with jumpering the channels. I also went with the Weber Alnico 12A125A in a combo, but have played other heads through it (Trainwreck Express), and the 5E3 through a Greenback and a Creamback. All great—like different paint brushes.

 

[2L man]

I would consider Post PI MV because cathodyne PI distortion look interesting and I think is what make 5E3 so special. Valvewizard pages has oscilloscope pictures and good explanation of it.

I use few minutes and always test OTs feeding mains voltage to primary ends and measure it and all outputs and calculate the winding ratio(s) and that to primary CT comes half the mains voltage. I tack solder mains cable to primary and when transformer has vires I tape them to table top so they do not short and then press wire tips against the table using multimeter probes. Few OT have had different impedance what I bought them.

If you have AC supply which produce about 10VAC its use is safer and produce same result. I have read recommendations to feed this low voltage backwards to secondary but it can produce different winding ratio.

 

[Uffepungen]

I would consider Post PI MV because cathodyne PI distortion look interesting and I think is what make 5E3 so special. Valvewizard pages has oscilloscope pictures and good explanation of it.

I use few minutes and always test OTs feeding mains voltage to primary ends and measure it and all outputs and calculate the winding ratio(s) and that to primary CT comes half the mains voltage. I tack solder mains cable to primary and when transformer has vires I tape them to table top so they do not short and then press wire tips against the table using multimeter probes. Few OT have had different impedance what I bought them.

If you have AC supply which produce about 10VAC its use is safer and produce same result. I have read recommendations to feed this low voltage backwards to secondary but it can produce different winding ratio.

Good advice! I've decided not to do any tone related mods, I'm going to use it stock until I find something I would like to change.

This is because A) I've only played it clean or attenuated, and I want to judge it going loud in rehearsal through a sweating alnico speaker

B) The cleanish sound even on low volume has been so promising, I imagine it will sound great turned up.

Thanks for all the comments! I have some unrelated questions too, I might start a new thread for those (to make them more search friendly).

 

[2L man]

5E3 power tubes do not get much current/power load and typical hot bias might keep them run hotter when not playing or playing quiet because loadline stay close the max plate dussipation line but when tubes alternate conducting current their power dissipation drop.

5E3 OT is quite small and saturate more than many other amps. When volume is turned up Phase Inverter distorts other power tube drive signal sooner and more and that increase distortion and still more when OT distorts obviously because of higher saturation the asymmetric operation cause.

I have not yet test it but I think PPIMV turned down still keep power tubes drive signals asymmetric and distortion shoud come proportionally about same, only lower volume. However most likely OT won't saturate as much when output power comes lower even power tubes operation comes distorted.

 

[Uffepungen]

More good info, I want to learn as much as I can