Old Beat Up Princeton

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by Aerochris, Jan 22, 2020.

  1. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,140
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Location:
    WV
    Like I said... Because even player NR princetons have high value. Try getting $1500 back from a kit build. A complete mojotone PR kit costs $875. You might be able to flip it for near that, if you're lucky. But pay half of the princeton value for one that needs repair, fix it. Then keep it or sell it. Either way you win. You have an original you can keep, or sell for likely more than you paid.

    Obviously less of an issue for an amp you don't plan on selling. But.... its also nice to be able to pay off a fix or build to fund another. It's not like the urge to build ever goes away. :twisted:

    https://columbus.craigslist.org/msg/d/columbus-mid-70s-fender-princeton-cts/7057397974.html
     
  2. trxx

    trxx Tele-Holic

    Age:
    42
    Posts:
    997
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2019
    Location:
    Between reality and imagination
    I guess it depends alot on how you approach a build. Building from a kit is going to be on the more expensive side. A scratch build, making your own cab, chassis, and board, finding some good value transformers and speaker, possibly using some used parts, could be considerably less expensive than a kit or buying a highly sought vintage amp to fix up.
     
  3. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,140
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Location:
    WV
    Yes, it could. It's also likely more satisfying in the end. But a scratch build is much more involved than some hobbyists may have time, knowledge, and resources to devote to. I'm not sure that's what OP has in mind, or he likely wouldn't have posted a thread on finding a princeton. I'm just saying buying amps for fix/repair is a viable option to building. Maybe not the most satisfying for some. But satisfying in the sense that it is more likely to pay for itself. That's a big part of the hobby for me.
     
  4. jonnyfez

    jonnyfez Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Age:
    58
    Posts:
    1,449
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Location:
    Kittery, Maine
    Wally and CWP0126 like this.
  5. trxx

    trxx Tele-Holic

    Age:
    42
    Posts:
    997
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2019
    Location:
    Between reality and imagination
  6. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,140
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Location:
    WV
    There are two in my area for that price. All say "firm, no trades", etc... Partly in contrast to what I said about getting back $1500 on a fixed princeton, the reality is that folks are wanting more than they are getting at sell time. But if you can find a cheaper broken one, it's still a good alternative to a $875 kit, IMO. The problem is that it's hard to find a broken princeton. People who have them know what they are worth, and how easy they are to fix. Other than the satisfaction of a complete build, the scarcity of broken princetons would be the main reason I might opt for a kit.
     
  7. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,140
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Location:
    WV
    Nope. Neither did Deluxe Reverbs. Hence the huge cost discrepancies between them and later pro reverbs and twins.
     
    RadioFM74 likes this.
  8. jonnyfez

    jonnyfez Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Age:
    58
    Posts:
    1,449
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Location:
    Kittery, Maine
    My friend plays a 70s Silverface PR. Sounds just like my '67 Blackface.
     
  9. trxx

    trxx Tele-Holic

    Age:
    42
    Posts:
    997
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2019
    Location:
    Between reality and imagination
    I didn't know that about Princetons and Deluxes.
     
  10. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    19,788
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Dime a dozen.

    Oh wait what?
     
  11. Aerochris

    Aerochris TDPRI Member

    Posts:
    10
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Location:
    North Carolina
    For us, it is for sure an option to build an amp from a kit or other parts sources. I just think it would be nice to give him an old amp to go along with the old guitar. And if the old amp doesn't have family history like the guitar does, maybe it would have history with us working on it together.
     
    Whatizitman likes this.
  12. hdvades

    hdvades Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    656
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Location:
    Hudson Valley, NY
    It's a good thing that's about a 5 hour trip for me or I'd be robbing the piggy bank and then some.
    Been wanting an original SF PR since the first time I heard one in the eighties.
     
    jonnyfez likes this.
  13. The Ballzz

    The Ballzz Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    65
    Posts:
    1,552
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    Please explain what you folks mean by the term "ultra-linear" as I'm not familiar, in this context!

    Thanks Folks,
    Gene
     
  14. trxx

    trxx Tele-Holic

    Age:
    42
    Posts:
    997
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2019
    Location:
    Between reality and imagination
    The circuits and transformers were changed for a much more clean sound and higher power rating. Where the older blackface circuits could be relatively easily pushed into some beautiful overdrive sounds (non-linear output, i.e., distortion) when cranked up into their sweet spots and beyond, the silverface amps were designed to be cleaner, and the ultra-linear silverface circuits were designed to stay very clean and get very loud. Before the ultra-linear changes, silverface amps could still be modified to go back to more or less blackface specs by changing not too many passive components. The ultra-linear amps got too many changes to make that practical. But there are fans of all three general types, blackface, silverface, and ultra-linear silverface amps. For fans of blackface amps though, original blackfaces are preferred, followed by modified silverfaces.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  15. The Ballzz

    The Ballzz Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    65
    Posts:
    1,552
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    @trxx
    Thanks for that! :cool: Though I'm still a little unsure of the timeline and what actually got changed out and on which amp models? :confused: I may have something to do with why this site stops most of the schematics past the Blackface era:

    https://vintagefenderamprepair.com

    I would however love to do some schematic comparison, if only for poops and giggles! o_OSchematics often do tell the real story, IF they are accurate! :rolleyes:

    Thanks Again,
    Gene
     
  16. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

    Posts:
    12,855
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Location:
    New England
    "Ultralinear" output transformers were the final evolution of tube hi- fi. They emulate the operation of McIntosh's "Autotransformer" without infringing McIntosh's patents. Rather than connecting the screen grids to the second power supply node as per the classic Williamson circuit, ultralinear transformers connect the screen grids to dedicated taps on the output transformer.

    Fender was likely interested in the concept because it squeezes ever little bit of power out of the output tubes. The screen grids make a couple watts each.

    In general:

    There were several steps in the evolution of '70s Fenders.

    Most "Big" amps changed from AB763 in '68 but not so far you couldn't change 'em back.

    1971: Champs, Vibro Champs, Princetons and Princeton Reverbs got an upgraded power transformer, one that wouldn't melt during normal use.

    All models switched over to fixed baffle cabinets in '71.

    '72, most of the big amp line got master volume controls.

    Big amps got more changes in '75 such as the flipped rear chassis flange, "pull boost" circuits and other IMO unattractive features.

    1977, big amps got ultralinear OTs. Princeton Reverbs got "pull boost". Smaller amps like Champs, Princetons and Princeton reverbs got beaverboard cabinets.

    Aside from the PT change in 1971, Champ and Vibro Champ circuits remained relatively unchanged for their entire model runs.

    Deluxe Reverb and Vibrolux Reverb amps remained relatively unchanged.


    Most musicians still look at the control panels. Black panels mean more bucks, silver panels mean less.
     
    Wally likes this.
  17. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

    Posts:
    12,855
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Location:
    New England
    What we have here is the classic immovable object vs. irresistible force.

    The immovable object is the seller's price. It's about double the high retail value of that amp. While he may achieve a "Gotcha!" and snag a buyer who reaches for his wallet before he notices the lack of the word "Reverb" on his amps silver panel, his price is the stuff of dreams.

    The irresistible force is a very price conscious market. While "nearly everyone" is aware of the asking prices of supposedly high money amps, they're also aware of the upper limits of those prices. Sure, you can ask for whatever you want. Good luck!

    I recently had a '72 and a '73 both Princeton Reverbs pop up semi locally. Asking prices were under $1300. They're both gone suggesting they were priced about right.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  18. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,140
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Location:
    WV
    I just pointed to this add as an example of old amp resale value versus kit build. There are a few other non-reverb princetons in my area that have sat for months at ~$800-1000. Mojotone sells PR kits for $875. But OP stated he didn't want a kit for this project. I think the biggest challenge would be finding a beat up princeton to buy, regardless of asking price, as its an iconic amp.
     
  19. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

    Posts:
    12,855
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Location:
    New England
    The knothole I keep tryin' to crawl through is to start with a chassis kit, build my own cabinet and supply my own speaker. Still, it's $800 in parts by the time I have all my parts.

    I'm interested in non- reverb Princetons that have sat for months at $800 to $1000.


    I manage to find a beat up Princeton Reverb about once a year. I beat every bush and turn over every rock lookin'.
     
  20. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,140
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Location:
    WV
    There are plenty more at higher lists. But I'm not joking that the one for $868 has been sitting for months! I thought there was another <$1000 specimen, but it may have sold(?).

    (1 deleted link - it was the same amp as the one below)

    https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/983597645352928/

    https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/416958862277628/

    https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/816780518741277/
     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.