Odd Low Octave Overtone when playing high E and B string together above Fret 12

[dougywarren]

Before or after the problem manifested?

What does 'did the frets' actually mean? - Level, crown and polish? or just polish?

What do you use for your final polishing process/materials?

Edit: Can you take a couple decent pics and post them back here? Preferably a good side profile pic and one more or less overhead of the offending fretboard region..

Yes, level, crown, and polish. I've done it on a few other guitars before with no issue. Don't have an offending fretboard region that I know of. There were a couple slightly high frets, but it's playing like butter now. I figured it would be worth doing just to see if it would help. It didn't help the overtone, but it did make it play like new!

 

[Thestripper]

Interesting. I just did the frets yesterday but didn’t notice anything. Maybe an experienced tech would be worth looking at it

The only thing I could notice with my guitar was that strange overtone. I couldn't see it or feel it on the fret. You could try a careful tap on that specific fret with a fret hammer just to see if it changes characteristics, if it does then you are probably on to something.

 

[RCinMempho]

Be sure your ceiling fan isn't running. Chased a ghost for a couple of weeks once that ended up disappearing with the ceiling fan off.

EDIT: Didn't see the earlier suggestions.

 

[Mister Vain]

Like the title says. Just heard it for the first time last night. Thought it was a power tube in my amp but then tried my Strymon Iridium straight in and it's there too with my Tele. If I play the high E or B separately, no issue. But when I play them both together on the same fret, ex: F# on the E string and C# on the B string, Fret 14, I get a weird low F# octave that appears. Seems to happen with both pickups, the more gain the more it emphasizes it. Fuzz really makes it really obvious. It's on the octave but it's not pretty. Swapped the strings out and nothing changed. What an odd issue. Open to suggestions? An odd Tele ghost?

Video of Tele and Iridium. You can here those weird low tones

Sounds like sympathetic resonance. I would probably lower your neck pickup just a bit. Let me know if that fixed it.

 

[PhredE]

Going solely by the info available, it seems to be dependent on : 1st str, and/or 14th fret. I would double check everything and anything associated with or contacting that first string and give that 14th fret a near microscopic inspection.

If it's a sympathetic resonance occurring in the section length between saddle pieces and ferrule, you can slip a thin piece of rubber tubing or vinyl wire jacketing over that end of the string (not in front of the saddle of course) to isolate it from any other metallic parts back past the saddle pieces.

Double check everything. Especially anything that is metallic that is in contact with any other metallic component.

When I had to chase similar ghosts, it came to me through a lot of trial/error to suspect things I would not normally suspect or would present a problem. Take nothing for granted.

 

[dougywarren]

The only thing I could notice with my guitar was that strange overtone. I couldn't see it or feel it on the fret. You could try a careful tap on that specific fret with a fret hammer just to see if it changes characteristics, if it does then you are probably on to something.

Very interesting. I'm going to reach out to a couple luthiers and see what they say. Good suggestion.

Sounds like sympathetic resonance. I would probably lower your neck pickup just a bit. Let me know if that fixed it.

Already tried bottoming it out, as well as the bridge, and it was still there unfortunately.

Going solely by the info available, it seems to be dependent on : 1st str, and/or 14th fret. I would double check everything and anything associated with or contacting that first string and give that 14th fret a near microscopic inspection.

If it's a sympathetic resonance occurring in the section length between saddle pieces and ferrule, you can slip a thin piece of rubber tubing or vinyl wire jacketing over that end of the string (not in front of the saddle of course) to isolate it from any other metallic parts back past the saddle pieces.

Double check everything. Especially anything that is metallic that is in contact with any other metallic component.

When I had to chase similar ghosts, it came to me through a lot of trial/error to suspect things I would not normally suspect or would present a problem. Take nothing for granted.

I'm going to try a fret wrap in places to see if that helps. Also read somewhere to place a a card between the neck and body to see if that helps. Also, I did have an issue with the A string tuner, I oiled it up and it seems to be working better but there could be something broken inside. It doesn't sound like anything is loose inside of it and I've held it down while playing the same notes above the 12th fret and it didn't change anything, but maybe it's inside. Other than checking the frets like thestripper recommended, the A string tuner, and the card in the neck pocket, that's about all I have left from my knowledge acquired from here and other research.

 

[PhredE]

I did have a weird issue once where an uneven neck pocket created some weird sonic stuff. It's not exactly like what you're experiencing, but was something awful sounding and really bugged me to the point of being intolerable. I took the neck off and cleaned up the neck pocket and put it back together and problem went away.

As far as the tuners go, you'd need a 2nd set of hands or a capo to do it, but if you can fret the E+B strings up at the 14th fr , ( then pluck the notes) and then immediately touch the tuner (actually, every tuner..) with the eraser of a pencil (credit @Peegoo and others for this method). That's a great trick for isolating things like you describe. Works great for bridge/saddles too. I had a loose tuner retaining nut which was doing very similar as you describe. These can be insidious because they can occur on new/newer instruments and really old ones -- but they're easy to overlook especially if the tuner keeps chugging along working ok. Wood shrinkage, changes in humditiy, etc. can usher that process along.

Good luck just the same. I'm not trying to pester you, just want to help drive to a solution.

 

[cousinpaul]

I've had to check my technique. Pressing too hard or moving one of the strings the tiniest bit sideways can cause that sort of thing.

 

[Supertwang]

I was just checking the design of the saddles

Best telecaster saddles on the market.

Fix the intonation on your tele with these compensated telecaster saddles from Bensonite - improved intonation, shorter set screws for improved feel, and slots to maintain proper string alignment. These saddles look, sound, and feel amazing.

www.bensoniteproducts.com

Are any of your saddle pieces touching the bridge plate directly? or are the adjusting screws raised enough to get the saddle piece(s) up off the bridge plate?

Edit: Is it possible the bridgeplate mounting screws (the head) protrude and contact either: one of the saddles, or one of the saddle height adjusters?

Another thing I would try is to place some softer material object like a pencil eraser, a neoprene grommet/washer, etc in contact with E, B strings to deaden any possible sympathetic vibration behind the saddle (eg; between saddle and where it descends into the thru body).
I use an appropriated sized grommet wedged between adjacent strings (B and E usually) and it does a good job of taking care of weird sonic anomalies like that. I would try it at the bridge end AND up between nut and tuner/string tree too.

I too believe it to be a “sympathetic vibration” coming from somewhere, most usually from the string tree(s), nut or saddle(s) but it could be coming from almost anywhere. Tighten every screw on the guitar paying special attention to the tuners. Have someone physically hold/dampen the tuners while you play.

 

[dougywarren]

I did have a weird issue once where an uneven neck pocket created some weird sonic stuff. It's not exactly like what you're experiencing, but was something awful sounding and really bugged me to the point of being intolerable. I took the neck off and cleaned up the neck pocket and put it back together and problem went away.

As far as the tuners go, you'd need a 2nd set of hands or a capo to do it, but if you can fret the E+B strings up at the 14th fr , ( then pluck the notes) and then immediately touch the tuner (actually, every tuner..) with the eraser of a pencil (credit @Peegoo and others for this method). That's a great trick for isolating things like you describe. Works great for bridge/saddles too. I had a loose tuner retaining nut which was doing very similar as you describe. These can be insidious because they can occur on new/newer instruments and really old ones -- but they're easy to overlook especially if the tuner keeps chugging along working ok. Wood shrinkage, changes in humditiy, etc. can usher that process along.

Good luck just the same. I'm not trying to pester you, just want to help drive to a solution.

Tried the capo. Same thing everywhere. Even playing the last fret high E and B there's a low end overtone. I'm also thinking humidity could be part of it. I'm just going to have to take it to a luthier. Luckily i'm in Nashville and have access to those among the best in the world. If they can't figure it out, I'll have to live with the ghost in my favorite Tele!

I've had to check my technique. Pressing too hard or moving one of the strings the tiniest bit sideways can cause that sort of thing.

Definitely helps a tad to play lighter, but it unfortunately still happens with the lightest touch

I too believe it to be a “sympathetic vibration” coming from somewhere, most usually from the string tree(s), nut or saddle(s) but it could be coming from almost anywhere. Tighten every screw on the guitar paying special attention to the tuners. Have someone physically hold/dampen the tuners while you play.

Right, it's weird. At this point I'm just taking it to a luthier.

 

[frisco slim]

I think you're hearing the difference frequency between the two notes.

Frequency of F# on E string at the 14th fret: 740.8 Hz
Frequency of C# on B string at the 14th fret: 555.6 Hz
Difference frequency: 740.8 - 555.6 = 185.2 Hz

What pitch is 185.2 Hz? F# as played at the 4th fret on the D string, exactly what we hear in the video.

The difference frequency is always present when we play two tones together, but we usually don't hear it because it tends to be very low energy and the ear tends to favor higher pitches. When the two pitches are very close together, we hear the difference frequency as a "beating" or warbling or vibrato.

Why it's so distinctly audible on your guitar, I'm not sure. Perhaps your neck has a strong resonance at that frequency. You might try clamping a heavy weight like a C-clamp on the headstock as a temporary trial to see if that has an effect. If you try that, let us know the result.

The attachment illustrates the beat frequency or difference frequency for two pitches that are about a whole tone apart. You wouldn't hear this one as a pitch because the difference frequency is only 10 Hz, below the range of human hearing, but you would hear as a rapid fluctuation in volume, a true tremolo.

 

[dougywarren]

I think you're hearing the difference frequency between the two notes.

Frequency of F# on E string at the 14th fret: 740.8 Hz
Frequency of C# on B string at the 14th fret: 555.6 Hz
Difference frequency: 740.8 - 555.6 = 185.2 Hz

What pitch is 185.2 Hz? F# as played at the 4th fret on the D string, exactly what we hear in the video.

The difference frequency is always present when we play two tones together, but we usually don't hear it because it tends to be very low energy and the ear tends to favor higher pitches. When the two pitches are very close together, we hear the difference frequency as a "beating" or warbling or vibrato.

Why it's so distinctly audible on your guitar, I'm not sure. Perhaps your neck has a strong resonance at that frequency. You might try clamping a heavy weight like a C-clamp on the headstock as a temporary trial to see if that has an effect.

The attachment shows the beat frequency or difference frequency for two pitches that are about a whole tone apart. Same idea.

View attachment 1406595

I think you are correct. That could be why I saw someone suggest a card in the neck pocket.

 

[dougywarren]

Had a reputable luthier check it out here in Nashville. He pointed out the frets were too low, to the point the guitar sounded "dead" unplugged. Especially on the high E and B string. Which does seem to line up with the issue. So we're going to do new frets, my A tuner is broken, it works as of now, but it needs replaced. so we're gonna replace those, try some different saddles, and a new higher nut to match the frets. The good ol Tele tune-up overhaul!

Thanks for all the help friends and @PhredE for your help as well. I'll share the post luthier job when it's done. Thanks!

 

[PhredE]

Well, sounds a bit painful ($-wise), but is progress. After all those fixes, you should have one really sweet sounding and playing guitar!

Good luck, let us know how it goes..

 

[dougywarren]

Well, sounds a bit painful ($-wise), but is progress. After all those fixes, you should have one really sweet sounding and playing guitar!

Good luck, let us know how it goes..

Yeah it’s a bit more $$$ than I would like to spend but I played one of his guitars set up the way he’s going to do mine and it was like absolute butter. The kind of neck and feel you could play all day long and your hand would want to keep going, I was impressed. I trust him.

 

[cousinpaul]

I once went nuts trying to track down a buzz. Tried everything to no avail. Long story short, the buzz was coming from my clip-on tuner. I don't suppose you'll get off that easy but it's one more possibility to scratch off'.

 

[dougywarren]

I once went nuts trying to track down a buzz. Tried everything to no avail. Long story short, the buzz was coming from my clip-on tuner. I don't suppose you'll get off that easy but it's one more possibility to scratch off'.

Unfortunately I don’t think mine is that easy but that does sound like something I would do

 

[Boreas]

Can you just remove the broken A tuner & string and see if it goes away? Mebbe something within the tuner is rattling.

Have you tried removing and re-setting the neck?

Does this have a Fender tilt-o-neck? Those parts can rattle. Especially if there is no pressure on them.

 

[PhredE]

.