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Observation about Black Dog timing...

Discussion in 'Music to Your Ears' started by Colo Springs E, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. TokyoPortrait

    TokyoPortrait Tele-Afflicted

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    Hi.

    People definitely hear different things. Both sounds / frequencies and also what 'matters' to them. I am reasonably indifferent to drums I have come to conclude, but a (non musician) friend of mine writes off songs, or even whole albums, if the drumming is, as he perceives it, off somehow - whether that be timing, tone, patterns or just general style. He's almost as fussy with other instruments. He seems to me to separate out things quite lot. Just the way he perceives music I guess.

    I can totally hear the sticks counting though, scattered throughout the song. Both in the YouTube version here and right now on my own copy on my system. That's without headphones too. They sound different to me at times too, like mostly sticks together, but occasionally various rims being hit, maybe?

    But, I also definalty miss things. I just now listened again with headphones, and only then really noticed both the fullness and the panning of the guitar trails.

    But anyway, this is one of my favourite Led Zeppelin songs, ever since I found a scratchy copy of it as a very young teenager, rummaging though my 14 years senior older brother's left behind collection of singles.

    Pax/
    Dean
     
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  2. swervinbob

    swervinbob Tele-Holic

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    Yeah, I hear the count ins on my iPad speakers. But, like has been said, we all hear differently.

    I agree that the band was probably tracked first and Plant comes in and ends in different places throughout the song. Sometimes a little earlier. Sometimes a little later.
     
  3. doghouseman

    doghouseman Tele-Meister

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    in your head man....
    Well, just a general point, in terms of timing. Zep probably used a scratch track for recording the first pass. So they were probably trying to sync to a scratch track for overdubs. If the scratch track was out of time, which it probably was, then syncing to that can be difficult for any other recordings. Believe me, I know, I have tried to sync to a scratch track. Some drummers just give up on doing this, which is why the click track is used currently.
     
  4. Colo Springs E

    Colo Springs E Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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  5. memorex

    memorex Friend of Leo's

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    Good video about Bonzo, analysis of Black Dog is around 6:10.

     
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  6. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Blues in 3/4 time.
     
  7. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    5/4 into 3/4 and Back and forth. Maybe without Bonham there would be no Led Zep????
    They definitely created music that was out of the ordinary even if the listeners don’t understand what is going on....amazing when you try to decipher some of the things they did, imho.....truly humble in this case.
     
  8. ndcaster

    ndcaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    yeah, on the nod

    gotta keep the band on its toes

    the grid can be lifeless -- Beato's Stairway feels like it's on a grid

    Bonham was beast mode 24/7, incredible drummer, sometimes I think he was the best musician in that band
     
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  9. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    The Crunge....here are the time changes in order...according to this book of music I have here....
    5/4..4/4..5/8..4/4..5/8..4/4..3/8..2/4..4/4..5/8..4/4..5/8..2/4..4/4..3/8..2/4..5/4..4/4..5/8..2/4..4/4..5/8..2/4..4/4..3/8..2/4..5/4....

    The longest stretch in any one constant time signature is the last 5/4, and it is constant for an amazing 24 measures! Amazing that it is for this song. In some spots there are three time changes in three measures.


    Now, back to something more understandable for a simple boy such as myself....




    and Bonham has some tricks there that keep the 4/4 from getting boring, eh? I am a big Ginger Baker fan. Among rock drummers he might be one who could have fully understood what Bonham was doing????
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  10. Jerry_Mountains

    Jerry_Mountains Tele-Meister

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    That Jazz Cabbage its an euphemism for weed? if so, yes that thing can impact your sense of time... I've been told :D

    I don't know about the cabbage but for me to be able to drumming along LZ tracks, I need at least three pints on me, when you are drunk you can sense that Bonham was also drunk when he was traking some of the songs.
     
  11. Ed Driscoll

    Ed Driscoll Tele-Holic

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    He's done four already, but now he's steady... ;)
     
  12. tubegeek

    tubegeek Friend of Leo's

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  13. beanluc

    beanluc Tele-Meister

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    Well, I can't hear him counting either, but when I count, he's on my count.
     
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  14. StrangerNY

    StrangerNY Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

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    Bonzo's genius. That beat was completely upside down. Can't deny the groove.

    - D
     
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  15. gmm52

    gmm52 Tele-Meister

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    I didn't say it did. My comment was merely a random observation about the evils of strict meter.
     
  16. gmm52

    gmm52 Tele-Meister

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    I had not seen it, but it confirms what many of us already knew. And you could do that experiment with much of the best rock & roll ever recorded with a similar result.
     
  17. allesz

    allesz Tele-Holic

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    You are talking about the real thing that make Zep stand out: they were unique, personal... really dirty and... Sloppy? In a wonderful day!

    Time signature may be just a superimposed thing.

    Quote from Zappa Frank: "people dont't talk in 4/4 or 3/4, they talk everywere".

    I don't listen a lot of Zep's atm; but they were the main reason I started ti play guitar.... And Guns and Roses of course...
     
  18. aFewGoodTaters

    aFewGoodTaters TDPRI Member

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    Drums are my second instrument and I could actually play this song pretty well at one time. It definitely wasn't recorded to a click (not sure if clicks were used much back then). If you listen really closely you can hear Bonham do a stick click on the downbeat of 'four' to cue the band and then comes in on the snare with five sixteenth notes (e-and-ah-one-e), then snare on two and four as normal.

    The tough thing about playing along to the recording is that he rushes that stick click cue some of time time, plays it pretty straight other times, and then drags it out a bit (the 'big legged woman' line has a bit of a longer pause from what I remember). I love the loose push pull feel of the original recording though. I wish more bands would incorporate that kind of feel in their playing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
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