Non diatonic theory

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Blackbird86, Oct 10, 2019 at 10:11 PM.

  1. Blackbird86

    Blackbird86 TDPRI Member

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    I never play covers. I rarely play the same thing twice. I use diatonic theory to improvise but its starting to get a little monotonous. Anyone know of a good non diatonic harmony guide?
     
  2. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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  3. dogmeat

    dogmeat Tele-Afflicted

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    no
     
  4. 57fenderstrat

    57fenderstrat Tele-Meister

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    What are you trying to do ? Like mode vamp jams with non functioning harmony or something beyond that like weird bitches brew stuff ?
     
  5. 57fenderstrat

    57fenderstrat Tele-Meister

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    There is a whole lot out there you can do just adding stuff into your diatonic playing or perhaps playing scales you already know over chords you wouldn’t normally think of.

    Building pentatonic scales off of different scale degrees than the root will give you some more colorful notes. A cmaj7th with a c pentatonic over it can be boring because your playing notes that are already in the chord. Playing a G pentatonic over a Cmaj7 with give you GABDE. You get the 9,6,and the 7 which sounds nice. Building a pentatonic off of the second note will give you DEF#AB. That will give you even more color and give you a Lydian sound with the #11.

    Playing diminished licks will add cool flavor into your playing.

    Modal stuff is fun if your not doing it already. For D Dorian vamps just think of your Aminor scale fingerings or you can think of your d minor scales and just raise the 6.

    Different scales and sounds will come from different chord subs from jazz and sometimes all you have to do is just play what you already know over different chords than you would expect for new sounds.
     
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  6. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    Non diatonic mean non 7 notes.

    That leaves a lot..

    Hexatonic ideas, pentatonic ideas, 9 tone scales, all 12 notes,,, all not diatonic.

    A nice idea is to play minor pents on the three minor chords found in a diatonic scale,

    For C major and it's family of chords,
    C Dm Em F G Am Bdim,,, play
    A minor, pent D minor pent, E minor pent, mix the three pents up. Very nice inside Larry Carlton-esque sound.

    For C7 dominant jam, or I7 in blues going to IV7,,, play
    C minor pent
    C major pent
    Ab major/F minor pent - soft out
    E major/C#minor pent - hard out
     
  7. LKB3rd

    LKB3rd Friend of Leo's

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    Throwing in some blues is a good way to get your non diatonic on. Try it over anything
     
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  8. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    My sense was that the OP was speaking about non-diatonic harmony progressions....changing key centers..not simply playing non-diatonic notes within a diatonic harmony setting, no?


    I understand what a diatonic scale is and diatonic harmony but in relation to the OP's question I'm not sure what you mean by this? You can certainly play non-diatonically with 7 note scales, no?
     
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  9. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    Here's a diatonic scale,
    A A# B C F# G G#

    And the point is?
     
  10. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    Since diatonic means seven tones, then no you can't play non diatonically if you're using seven tones.

    But I don't think the op is looking to define diatonic.

    LKB3rd suggested blues, excellent non diatonic topic.

    Fundamental blues have two scales, the major and the minor pentatonics. They are facinating in their structure.

    Here are the two pents side by side stacked vertically across five strings.

    . Major. minor
    1)---3----------3 = G
    2)---3----------4 = D/Eb
    3)---2----------3 = A/Bb
    4)---2----------3 = E/F
    5)---3----------3 = C
    6)-----------------
     
  11. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    Depends on which 7 you pick and then what key you play em in ;).

    *I have no real idea what the OP wants to know.
     
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  12. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Diatonic does not mean 7 tones. If you play seven chromatic notes that is not diatonic. Diatonic means the notes have the whole note / half note relationships you would find in a major scale, although you could start from any of the scale’s notes. Ie C ionian equald D dorian equals E Phrygian etc.
     
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  13. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    Seven notes is seven notes,, sticking to 12edo that iz.

    This weird scale I wrote out,
    A A# B C F# G G#

    Let's harmonize it and attemp to make a tonal center out of it.

    --------------------------------------------------5
    ----------------------------7-----8-----9-------
    -2-----3-----4-----5---------------------------
    ----------------------------7-----9---10------4
    -3-----4-----5-----6---------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------------

    -7-----8-----9---12-----10
    ---------------------------------
    ---------------------------------
    -5-----6-----7---11-----12
    ---------------------------------
    ---------------------------------

    Did I establish the key of D?

    Maybe a few changes would smooth it out?

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    -1-----2-----3-----4-----7-----8-----9----12----10
    -2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8----11-----9
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Did I establish the key of A? Two times?

    From nothing can come order, if you don't fall apart in your solo before the order happens,,, lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 7:51 PM
  14. Bob Sushko

    Bob Sushko TDPRI Member

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    Yes, George Russel's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization is a logical step away from playing diatonically.
     
  15. LKB3rd

    LKB3rd Friend of Leo's

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    It means in the key of the song basically
     
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  16. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Exactly.....:)
     
  17. ASATKat

    ASATKat Tele-Afflicted

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    Lots of songs shift tonal centers (modulate) all over the place where the stated key is only played in a little.
     
  18. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Yes, and then there are a new set of diatonic (and non-diatonic) notes in each of those keys.
     
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  19. 57fenderstrat

    57fenderstrat Tele-Meister

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    I don’t really know what the original poster wants but the way I read it sounded like he was bored improvising with the Ionian and aeolian sounds. It comes to the point where you start playing the same stuff or patterns in each key, like your doing the same things each time but just in a different spot on the board. I think he is looking for more ways to play outside, move from scale to scale, more exotic things. But I don’t know it’s just me guess.

    I think that there is a whole world of things you can be doing diatonicly it’s just tricky finding it all. You don’t have to jump into 12 tone rows or anything, unless that’s what you want.

    Another thing is you say you don’t play covers? For many years I didn’t either, I knew I could learn them if I tried but I didn’t bother because I was just doing my own thing. After awhile that causes you to go stale and I think a lot of progress comes from learning covers or parts to get your fingers playing new things that you haven’t come up with. You will find yourself getting a ton of new ideas each time you do.
     
  20. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    This is also one, of several, choices I made early on that I somewhat regret. One of the limitations it places on you is if you desire to play music with other people....and those other people actually know and want to play songs that aren't just 12 bar blues improvisations...lol.
     
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