Noiseless vs. MIM Ceramics?

[josephdviviano]

So I guess I’m a fairly “modern” player (play clean but lots of effects). I’ve been playing a les Paul for 20 years. I just picked up a cheap MIM Tele with a maple neck for a punchy sound with lots of attack and as a counterpart to the les Paul it does the trick. The MIM ceramics sound good to me.

I do hate the single coil buzz though. As the noiseless pickups are “single coil ish mini humbuckers” - do they sound similar to the MIM ceramics? I find the ceramics sound very single coil ish to my untrained ear (I still don’t really have expereince with the vintage style pickups). If the noiseless (I’m thinking Gen 4 or Ultra Vintage) are similar to MIM Ceramics with no hum I’ll likely go for that.

 

[TheZ]

To me, noiseless pickups sound like single coils but with less complexity and higher output. They probably won't sound like MIM stock pickups. If you haven't had a chance to experience vintage style pickups, I would give them to try. Not all of them are super noisy.

 

[ChicknPickn]

Just know that noiseless pickups, nice as they are, won't be particularly "single coil-ish."

 

[Caffiend]

There's wild generalisms here so beware.

Generally, ceramic pickups tend towards higher outputs and more punch and may be actually ideal for more modern players happy to push beyond accepted wisdom. Alnico tends toward sweeter, more complex tones if given a setup with the headroom to make use of it. I find it's very much a 'you like what you like' - neither is 'better' in all circumstances.

The noiseless pickups are a different beast. They're aiming at the sound of the alnicos simply because that's the sound that sells (or at least promise of) for most simply because of the obsession with vintage. They're probably in a similar place to your ceramics for output but may be noticeably different for tones. Unfortunately I think most comparisons you're going to find relate them to vintage style alnicos so you may need to take the plunge and find out. FWIW I think you're probably going to be happy with them

 

[ChicknPickn]

There's a thread about Bill Lawrence's Micro-Coil pickups here: https://www.tdpri.com/threads/wilde-micro-coils-just-wow.1134769/ .

These are about as "single-coil" as you can get, and in a guitar with shielded pickup cavities, they are close to being noiseless. And their sonic range has to be heard to be believed.

 

[Trenchant63]

My one experience with Duncan stacked coil noiseless singles was not great. When splitting them - they sounded more alive and slightly louder. In stacked mode they were just ok - a touch dull even. I found it interesting on this prewired pickguard that Duncan included the push pull splitter in the first place. Why include it if the pickups sound so truly single coil in stacked mode?? It shouldn’t be needed! So I ended up playing them in single coil mode anyway. From that experience I gathered that I should go to full on humbuckers if I want noise cancellation via multiple coils or just stick with true single coils and deal with the buzz. The third compromise option for me would be Lace pickups - true single coil and virtually noiseless by design. I’ve tried them and they’re great for my playing style.

 

[josephdviviano]

Thanks everyone. Are the MIM ceramics more noisy than your average vintage pickup?

The lace pickups are interesting - they’re similar to the ones Jonny Greenwood uses in his guitar, but I’ve been able to approximate that sound using my Les Paul(at least the high output blue / red combo) so it’s not a complete priority.

I’ll look into the bill Lawrence options.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? Should I just invest in proper shielding for my telecaster to handle the noise (or something along these lines?)

 

[erratick]

I did the Bill Lawrence Wilde Pickups noiseless. Similar reasons, I like a quiet guitar. Gives a tone in a noiseless that is very single coil sounding.

However, MIM ceramics are about the same in terms of noise as any single coil. They are mass produced, but good quality pickups. Single coils really depend on implementation.

Shielding/grounding can definitely affect noise. So can power, grounding, cable, your amp, and interference (hello flourescent lights).

Is the noise present when you plug in?

What about not playing touching the guitar or not?

What about when you are not playing, are touching the strings and move the guitar around facing different ways compared to the amp or lights in the room?

 

[josephdviviano]

I did the Bill Lawrence Wilde Pickups noiseless. Similar reasons, I like a quiet guitar. Gives a tone in a noiseless that is very single coil sounding.

However, MIM ceramics are about the same in terms of noise as any single coil. They are mass produced, but good quality pickups. Single coils really depend on implementation.

Shielding/grounding can definitely affect noise. So can power, grounding, cable, your amp, and interference (hello flourescent lights).

Is the noise present when you plug in?

What about not playing touching the guitar or not?

What about when you are not playing, are touching the strings and move the guitar around facing different ways compared to the amp or lights in the room?

I live in a noisy apartment. I have an extremely high quality casino style guitar with p90s that has a similar level of noise. I tolerate it there because that hollowbody thin line p90 sound is my dream guitar. Telecaster not as much, but I do appreciate how punchy and bright it is when compared to my two softer and rounder Gibson style guitars (the casino and the les Paul). I’d like each guitar to occupy a distinct sonic space.

 

[Caffiend]

Ok, the Casino's P90s are also single coils so assuming your Les Paul with humbuckers is quiet then this is almost certainly 60 cycle hum.

Shielding will probably help a bit but it's an inexact science and not as simple as it sounds unless you get very lucky (there are many threads on it). Maybe try an ashtray cover on the Tele bridge?

 

[Cali Dude]

Thanks everyone. Are the MIM ceramics more noisy than your average vintage pickup?

The lace pickups are interesting - they’re similar to the ones Jonny Greenwood uses in his guitar, but I’ve been able to approximate that sound using my Les Paul(at least the high output blue / red combo) so it’s not a complete priority.

I’ll look into the bill Lawrence options.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? Should I just invest in proper shielding for my telecaster to handle the noise (or something along these lines?)

For a single coil sound, I would look into lace gold pickups.

 

[Caffiend]

Laces could be what you're after, to be fair.

 

[Pokey Tele]

I have Fender Vintage Noiseless (Alnico 2) pickups in my (avatar) 2019 Nashville Tele--love 'em!

That guitar comes stock with 1Meg volume and tone pots. I use a 500K volume pot (w/S1 switch and treble bleed, 330K||510pF) and 1Meg tone pot in mine--still sounds good. (Normally I use the John Hewitt 150K||1000pF treble bleed for 500K pots).

Also I have the pickups adjusted pretty low--much lower than Fender's "spec" for these pickups--which makes them sound even better to me:

My Nashville Tele Pickup Heights.
Measured with strings fretted at last fret.
Measured from pickup pole pieces to bottom of string.
--Except Neck, measured from Pup cover to bottom of string.

Bridge bass: 12/64" treble: 9/64"
Middle bass: 11/64" treble: 9/64"
Neck bass: 10/64" treble: 8/64"

Fender "Spec": Bass Side Treble Side
Noiseless™ Series 8/64" (3.6 mm) 6/64" (2.4 mm)

======================================
My (high-ish) Action (10" radius, 17th fret to bottom of string):
Bass Side Treble Side
6/64" 5/64"

Fender "Spec":
Bass Side Treble Side
4/64" 4/64"

 

[Randy07ACV6]

It has got to be worth your time to shield the pickups and wiring. It is a skill worth learning, try that first. Do the P-90s too.
In my area lots of people replace the stock Player pickups (even though they sound great).
Sometimes you can find a set cheap. Currently Alnico 5, not noiseless, very classic sound.

 

[Jakedog]

Don’t listen to the “noiseless don’t sound like single coils” rhetoric. Nobody who says that could listen to a dozen quality recorded mixes and pick out which six were done with noiseless pickups. Nobody.

Also, the enormous difference some people claim to hear playing by themselves in a quiet living room or home studio is completely lost on a gig stage with a full band playing.

Noiseless are an excellent choice for running a lot of effects and playing clean. Lots of guys also like the EMG stuff for that.

As for whether or not they sound like MIM ceramics I couldn’t make a decent call on that. I haven’t played stock MiM Tele pickups in probably 20 years.

Anytime you incorporate a lot of effects and/or processing, you’re going to introduce more noise. Noiseless pickups are a great idea.

 

[jvin248]

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The MIM ceramic single coils have stronger output than the weaker Alnico style. Generally the same bobbin wraps used on both 6-7kohms. You can make ceramic pickups sound like alnico, including all the poetic waxing that gets done about them, if you lower the pickups nearly flush with the pickguard. Ceramic was introduced to get more output (for 80s metal and younger players) than possible with alnico pickups cranked up by the strings (where they will sound bad). Leo Fender's G&L MFD pickups went with ceramic magnets and lower winds to get more output and less noise, which some Indonesian Strat/Tele Squier pickups have used lately (bobbins measure 3-4kohms not typical 6kohm alnico for Strats). Adjusting pickup heights by ear wipes out any alnico vs ceramic tone differences -- those who complain about one or the other are often putting pickups 'at factory height spec' that was devised for alnico...

I'd wire your Tele with a 4-way switch, that way if you are at a noisy gig you can flip to series humbucking mode.

Get Nashua Aluminum Flashing Tape to quiet the guitar cavities, making sure you have tabs that connect to the control plate and pickguard (you need a cage). Swap the two wires to the jack to shielded cable (for some guitars those two wires are half the noise floor). You can get expensive copper tape kits for three times the price of the aluminum to do one guitar vs two dozen guitars with aluminum. High tech laptops and smart phones use aluminum shielding. It helps. You probably notice your Tele neck pickup is a lot quieter because it's covered like a PAF humbucker.

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[Controller]

.

The MIM ceramic single coils have stronger output than the weaker Alnico style. Generally the same bobbin wraps used on both 6-7kohms. You can make ceramic pickups sound like alnico, including all the poetic waxing that gets done about them, if you lower the pickups nearly flush with the pickguard. Ceramic was introduced to get more output (for 80s metal and younger players) than possible with alnico pickups cranked up by the strings (where they will sound bad). Leo Fender's G&L MFD pickups went with ceramic magnets and lower winds to get more output and less noise, which some Indonesian Strat/Tele Squier pickups have used lately (bobbins measure 3-4kohms not typical 6kohm alnico for Strats). Adjusting pickup heights by ear wipes out any alnico vs ceramic tone differences -- those who complain about one or the other are often putting pickups 'at factory height spec' that was devised for alnico...

I'd wire your Tele with a 4-way switch, that way if you are at a noisy gig you can flip to series humbucking mode.

Get Nashua Aluminum Flashing Tape to quiet the guitar cavities, making sure you have tabs that connect to the control plate and pickguard (you need a cage). Swap the two wires to the jack to shielded cable (for some guitars those two wires are half the noise floor). You can get expensive copper tape kits for three times the price of the aluminum to do one guitar vs two dozen guitars with aluminum. High tech laptops and smart phones use aluminum shielding. It helps. You probably notice your Tele neck pickup is a lot quieter because it's covered like a PAF humbucker.

.

This ^^^^

I can easily dial in a good sound with ceramic pickups by adjusting them lower. In fact, I seem to prefer ceramic pickups, but any pickup that sounds good works for me. Maybe I just have cheap tastes. It's hard to ignore the Internet hype/buzz/conventional wisdom but if a pickup sounds good it is good, regardless of construction. I wish you the best of luck. Pickup swapping is not for the faint of heart but it probably can be fun. I think the key is being OK with not knowing if you have ever achieved the ultimate tone.

 

[Donmare2324]

"Hello, my lovely Wifey".

"There are 2-type's of Stratocaster Guitar Tone* today"
type-1 has, original-ish VINTAGE Pickups - but it can cause a unwanted buzzing sound at times,
...but we serious guitarist really, still will need that ones original intricacies .

the other has no buzzing.
but it can also loose some of those very-much needed intricacies.

I need to sound my best at all times,
and I know how you like to look your best too.

I say, let us both add some needed
items to our life's... asap.

I'll be needing a MIM Strat with some pickups to help me achieve my goal.


You should match my $ purchase on some of those things you have put off for awhile,

ok... shall we?

PS.. Im not married so best of luck.. LOL

 

[josephdviviano]

.

The MIM ceramic single coils have stronger output than the weaker Alnico style. Generally the same bobbin wraps used on both 6-7kohms. You can make ceramic pickups sound like alnico, including all the poetic waxing that gets done about them, if you lower the pickups nearly flush with the pickguard. Ceramic was introduced to get more output (for 80s metal and younger players) than possible with alnico pickups cranked up by the strings (where they will sound bad). Leo Fender's G&L MFD pickups went with ceramic magnets and lower winds to get more output and less noise, which some Indonesian Strat/Tele Squier pickups have used lately (bobbins measure 3-4kohms not typical 6kohm alnico for Strats). Adjusting pickup heights by ear wipes out any alnico vs ceramic tone differences -- those who complain about one or the other are often putting pickups 'at factory height spec' that was devised for alnico...

I'd wire your Tele with a 4-way switch, that way if you are at a noisy gig you can flip to series humbucking mode.

Get Nashua Aluminum Flashing Tape to quiet the guitar cavities, making sure you have tabs that connect to the control plate and pickguard (you need a cage). Swap the two wires to the jack to shielded cable (for some guitars those two wires are half the noise floor). You can get expensive copper tape kits for three times the price of the aluminum to do one guitar vs two dozen guitars with aluminum. High tech laptops and smart phones use aluminum shielding. It helps. You probably notice your Tele neck pickup is a lot quieter because it's covered like a PAF humbucker.

.

Thanks this was an extremely informative and practical answer. Can the stock MIM ceramics be wired in humbucking mode or do you need one to the RWRP for that to work properly?

Already done the high adjustments, makes a huge difference in every guitar in my experience.

I’d prefer to spend as little as possible. The noiseless or lace options seem interesting but if I can get away with a rewrite and some tape that’s even better

 

[josephdviviano]

Don’t listen to the “noiseless don’t sound like single coils” rhetoric. Nobody who says that could listen to a dozen quality recorded mixes and pick out which six were done with noiseless pickups. Nobody.

Also, the enormous difference some people claim to hear playing by themselves in a quiet living room or home studio is completely lost on a gig stage with a full band playing.

Noiseless are an excellent choice for running a lot of effects and playing clean. Lots of guys also like the EMG stuff for that.

As for whether or not they sound like MIM ceramics I couldn’t make a decent call on that. I haven’t played stock MiM Tele pickups in probably 20 years.

Anytime you incorporate a lot of effects and/or processing, you’re going to introduce more noise. Noiseless pickups are a great idea.

Thanks I agree with you - I know what I like but at the same time I’m not a tone snob.

Do you have a strong opinion between noiseless single coils vs these lace sensor options? Seems like the lace sensors are more compressed in their dynamics (even the low output ones)?

I’m very unlikely to swap pickups more than once so I’m gonna go for a low risk option.