NGD Grote Jazz

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PhredE

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Yes, the full hollow body (red) with one P90:

DSCN1062.JPG



Summary: Since these are well known and posted about here on TDPRI, I won't rehash all the details. For the most part, all the previous descriptions proved true. Overall, a good build. Frets are wonky, nut needs work, finish is good, the P90 sounds better than I anticipated, etc. The bridge is acceptable but would probably be better with an upgrade and the tuners are really rough. They will probably be the first upgrade.


The 'one big problem':
The 5th fret came with a pronounced divot ('gouge' is probably a better word) under the Low E. It is DIRECTLY under the string about 40-30% of the fret height. It's location and size means an unavoidable buzz. I decided that instead of lowering/leveling and re-crowning all the frets, I'd rather just pull that one and pop in a new one (a more surgical fix and I don't lose fret height overall that way).

Hence, the question: does anyone happen to know or venture a reasoned guess about the spec of the fretwire used on these guitars? Eyeballing and with some crude measurements (I don't have a precision caliper), it appears to be something close to
JESCAR NICKEL SILVER FRETWIRE FW45100 ELECTRIC MEDIUM/JUMBO PRE-RADIUSED
Jescar FW45100 (crown 0.01" x 0.045", tang width 0.022", with 12" radius).
I have sufficient tools to pull the bad one and press in a new fret, no sweat there. I just need to get correct replacement fret(s) as close as possible. I don't mind that much if it's not a perfect replacement, I just want it to be close for fit and leveling purposes. I tried to get a decent pic but just didn't work very well for various reasons (apologies).


Got it setup and playing well. Sounds terrific. Overall, I like it. It's a keeper.



Detailed Stuff:

Arrived via USPS in a double cardboard box. Exterior box took a hit, but guitar was not damaged in any way (/sigh!) I'll confess to feeling extremely lucky as the last 3 I have ordered all came via USPS and I have had no problems.

Frets: Found 5, 9, 13 and 19 very tall -- some of the highest on a new guitar I've seen ever perhaps.
Rather than breaking out the leveler block I decided to check if they were fully seated first. I used a C-clamp (padded the jaws) and a small piece of dimensional wood (1/2"W x 1/4"thick x 3"L) and clamped groups of frets in to see if any had truly 'popped' or just didn't seat. For whatever reason (badly cut slot?) they didn't budge.

I lowered the offending frets and polished them up nice. Frets are now as good as any guitar I've ever played. Polished frets (sand w/2500gr, polish with Micro Mesh), followed by a clean up wipe with lemon oil on a microfiber rag. All is well with the board and frets.


The fretboard appears to be rosewood and the binding is done well. No problems there. Inlay markers were cleanly done although there is a slight bit of discoloration on the headstock side of most of them. Nothing I would ever get excited about, but if you're a purist about aesthetics, some might have a problem.


Bridge: Base block appears to be a block of some mystery wood stained dark to resemble rosewood. The bridge itself is decent quality. Fit is reasonable, saddle travel is sufficient to get the intonation (along with moving the bridge base) right. Removed tape from under side of bridge base (mark outline with pencil or painter's tape first!), wiped area with paint thinner to remove residue and then did a quick fine sand to smooth the base a tad. Finally, I should note that the arc (radius) of the base of the bridge does not mimic the radius of the corresponding part of the body exactly -- it's close, but not a gapless fit across the bridge base. There is a slight gap toward the middle. This might affect the sound, it's hard to say for sure. I will probably go with a heavier gauge set next, so with greater downward force that gap under the bridge base may shrink somewhat.


Nut - Sanded for shape, lowered each string slot. The shape was not my preferred shape (I like it strongly sloped on the front) and the string slots were done decently, but not to spec (most were only .03"). Mystery material. Looked like bone, but filed too easily to be bone and did not emit strong bleach smell when filed.

Tuners: Pretty rough action, although do seem to be holding pitch once strings are broken in. Probably will be replaced after I work through string options. Tuners and/or bridge base are the highest priorities for upgrade.

Pickup: I like it. It's installed quite low as all the others, but sound is pretty good and I can EQ it easily to make it sound like I want. Not planning on swapping soon -- maybe later. I may shim as others have done but it's not a priority right now.

Misc.

There is some very slight residual buzzes or resonances coming from the trapeze piece and/or bridge (or both?). I'll use something to deaden the strings down past the bridge. I expect that should take care of it. Later, I may swap out bridge base + bridge.

Finally, the paint and finish were fine. Only an isolate speck here or there. Binding is well done throughout. And the thing I worry most about with a set neck guitar -- the neck angle / neck joint -- was done well. The neck angle is spot on and neck is straight and true. Overall, it's a definite keeper and quite a fun guitar to play.

Overall, thumb's up.

It came with steel wound strings that have the most squeak I have ever heard in a wound string. They have to go! Possible replacements are:

GHS Burnished Nickel Med
D'addario Flats Med
GHS Brite Flats Med


Two more pics:
DSCN1063.JPG
DSCN1064.JPG
 

Obsessed

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Great review and congrats. Your finish seems better than when I got mine, but I didn’t have the fret issues. Just to let you know, standard CTS pots didn’t squeak through the f hole, so I went with mini Biorns. If you have some other P-90 experience, this is good to know. This is my first ever P-90 and seems great to me, but I have nothing to compare with.
 

PhredE

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Yeah, it's a new adventure for me too. Only had 1 semi-hollow long, long time ago but one of just about every solid body guitar ever made over the years (I was young, dumb AND stupid-- but, I'll save that for another time..)

After I had posted, I set down and was fine sanding / polishing on the offending fret and did sort of a very minor take on 'fall-away' going up the fretboard from the 5th fr combined with raising the low-side action just a hair... the buzz is mostly gone. Maybe I can escape without having to do any more tweaking..


ust to let you know, standard CTS pots didn’t squeak through the f hole, so I went with mini Biorns.
Things like this are my biggest fear when buying anything with F-holes and potentially needing an upgrade! I just got done with the same operation on the Firefly 335!! Tedious, not that much fun I found.

Thanks for the head's up. I may leave them for now and deal with it later, but yeah, I've got Bourns mini pots in another guitar and really like them. The P90s I have almost no experience with and I'm sure an aftermarket quality unit would sound better, but for my tastes/requirements, it'll work ok for now (I have lots of tweaking ability up the signal chain anyway).
 

sloppychops

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Good to see you got it dialed in. I was pretty lucky with mine, I guess. Just some really minor buffing scratches here and there and a couple slightly high frets...and a small flub on the binding on top.

I had a luthier put an all-wood bridge/saddle on mine and press down the high frets, too. I think it sounds better with this bridge, less metallic. I also put Gotoh SG381 locking tuners on it. This is THE #1, first priority mission with these guitars. Mine would not stay in tune more than 10 minutes. Night and day difference with the Gotohs, and they look better, too.

I have a cheapo fix on the pickup height. It's just a couple rubber bushings under the mounting screws to elevate it about 1/4".
 

PhredE

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Good to see you got it dialed in. I was pretty lucky with mine, I guess. Just some really minor buffing scratches here and there and a couple slightly high frets...and a small flub on the binding on top.

I had a luthier put an all-wood bridge/saddle on mine and press down the high frets, too. I think it sounds better with this bridge, less metallic. I also put Gotoh SG381 locking tuners on it. This is THE #1, first priority mission with these guitars. Mine would not stay in tune more than 10 minutes. Night and day difference with the Gotohs, and they look better, too.

I have a cheapo fix on the pickup height. It's just a couple rubber bushings under the mounting screws to elevate it about 1/4".

Oh yeah,thanks. I remember your thread about your Grote too. I was sort of keyed into the things to check -- so that helped a bunch (and all the other similar threads as well :)).

I think the fret situation will slide by ok for now. Yeah, the tuners will likely go soon and I'll give those Gotoh's a serious look. I also think the bridge/base situation is another area for improvement. Eventually, 1. tuners, 2. bridge/base and 3. electronics (possibly PU) will get upgraded.

I get it, it's a really fun guitar to play. Acoustically or plugged in.
 

nojazzhere

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Yes, the full hollow body (red) with one P90:

View attachment 906910


Summary: Since these are well known and posted about here on TDPRI, I won't rehash all the details. For the most part, all the previous descriptions proved true. Overall, a good build. Frets are wonky, nut needs work, finish is good, the P90 sounds better than I anticipated, etc. The bridge is acceptable but would probably be better with an upgrade and the tuners are really rough. They will probably be the first upgrade.


The 'one big problem':
The 5th fret came with a pronounced divot ('gouge' is probably a better word) under the Low E. It is DIRECTLY under the string about 40-30% of the fret height. It's location and size means an unavoidable buzz. I decided that instead of lowering/leveling and re-crowning all the frets, I'd rather just pull that one and pop in a new one (a more surgical fix and I don't lose fret height overall that way).

Hence, the question: does anyone happen to know or venture a reasoned guess about the spec of the fretwire used on these guitars? Eyeballing and with some crude measurements (I don't have a precision caliper), it appears to be something close to
JESCAR NICKEL SILVER FRETWIRE FW45100 ELECTRIC MEDIUM/JUMBO PRE-RADIUSED
Jescar FW45100 (crown 0.01" x 0.045", tang width 0.022", with 12" radius).
I have sufficient tools to pull the bad one and press in a new fret, no sweat there. I just need to get correct replacement fret(s) as close as possible. I don't mind that much if it's not a perfect replacement, I just want it to be close for fit and leveling purposes. I tried to get a decent pic but just didn't work very well for various reasons (apologies).


Got it setup and playing well. Sounds terrific. Overall, I like it. It's a keeper.



Detailed Stuff:

Arrived via USPS in a double cardboard box. Exterior box took a hit, but guitar was not damaged in any way (/sigh!) I'll confess to feeling extremely lucky as the last 3 I have ordered all came via USPS and I have had no problems.

Frets: Found 5, 9, 13 and 19 very tall -- some of the highest on a new guitar I've seen ever perhaps.
Rather than breaking out the leveler block I decided to check if they were fully seated first. I used a C-clamp (padded the jaws) and a small piece of dimensional wood (1/2"W x 1/4"thick x 3"L) and clamped groups of frets in to see if any had truly 'popped' or just didn't seat. For whatever reason (badly cut slot?) they didn't budge.

I lowered the offending frets and polished them up nice. Frets are now as good as any guitar I've ever played. Polished frets (sand w/2500gr, polish with Micro Mesh), followed by a clean up wipe with lemon oil on a microfiber rag. All is well with the board and frets.


The fretboard appears to be rosewood and the binding is done well. No problems there. Inlay markers were cleanly done although there is a slight bit of discoloration on the headstock side of most of them. Nothing I would ever get excited about, but if you're a purist about aesthetics, some might have a problem.


Bridge: Base block appears to be a block of some mystery wood stained dark to resemble rosewood. The bridge itself is decent quality. Fit is reasonable, saddle travel is sufficient to get the intonation (along with moving the bridge base) right. Removed tape from under side of bridge base (mark outline with pencil or painter's tape first!), wiped area with paint thinner to remove residue and then did a quick fine sand to smooth the base a tad. Finally, I should note that the arc (radius) of the base of the bridge does not mimic the radius of the corresponding part of the body exactly -- it's close, but not a gapless fit across the bridge base. There is a slight gap toward the middle. This might affect the sound, it's hard to say for sure. I will probably go with a heavier gauge set next, so with greater downward force that gap under the bridge base may shrink somewhat.


Nut - Sanded for shape, lowered each string slot. The shape was not my preferred shape (I like it strongly sloped on the front) and the string slots were done decently, but not to spec (most were only .03"). Mystery material. Looked like bone, but filed too easily to be bone and did not emit strong bleach smell when filed.

Tuners: Pretty rough action, although do seem to be holding pitch once strings are broken in. Probably will be replaced after I work through string options. Tuners and/or bridge base are the highest priorities for upgrade.

Pickup: I like it. It's installed quite low as all the others, but sound is pretty good and I can EQ it easily to make it sound like I want. Not planning on swapping soon -- maybe later. I may shim as others have done but it's not a priority right now.

Misc.

There is some very slight residual buzzes or resonances coming from the trapeze piece and/or bridge (or both?). I'll use something to deaden the strings down past the bridge. I expect that should take care of it. Later, I may swap out bridge base + bridge.

Finally, the paint and finish were fine. Only an isolate speck here or there. Binding is well done throughout. And the thing I worry most about with a set neck guitar -- the neck angle / neck joint -- was done well. The neck angle is spot on and neck is straight and true. Overall, it's a definite keeper and quite a fun guitar to play.

Overall, thumb's up.

It came with steel wound strings that have the most squeak I have ever heard in a wound string. They have to go! Possible replacements are:

GHS Burnished Nickel Med
D'addario Flats Med
GHS Brite Flats Med


Two more pics:
View attachment 906911 View attachment 906913
That's a BEAUTY! I'm still pleased with my Grote 335-type. (also red) MANY years ago, I had a "divot" in a fret on a cheap guitar that buzzed and really annoyed me. I did the solder on the fret trick, (and then, of course filed it down to correct shape) and it worked OK.....but had to be re-done when the solder wore down. But that was just regular electronic solder I had. If you can do it, just replace that fret, and just get it high enough you can then file it down to match the others. Good luck!
 

PhredE

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That's a BEAUTY! I'm still pleased with my Grote 335-type. (also red) MANY years ago, I had a "divot" in a fret on a cheap guitar that buzzed and really annoyed me. I did the solder on the fret trick, (and then, of course filed it down to correct shape) and it worked OK.....but had to be re-done when the solder wore down. But that was just regular electronic solder I had. If you can do it, just replace that fret, and just get it high enough you can then file it down to match the others. Good luck!


Yeah, thanks. I did a full refret on the VM51 over there in my pic (maple PU finished board, no binding).. and although I was stressing greatly over it, turned out about as well as it could have. The board was already a bit tired and banged up being loaned out to my brother. So I figured, I'd give it a shot and didn't have too much to lose. I researched the heck out of the project and 'tooled-up'. So, as a result of all that, I have the ability to heat/pull/press in a new fret a-ok -- the big question is: what fret size do I need? I think I can swap that one with no problem if need be. I'm still gingerly sanding and polishing on that fret (and a few immediately upward) and that seems to be helping. I'll play it by ear.

Overall, I'm enjoying the heck out of this guitar though.

Edt: Yikes! Just poked around to find prices on silver solder -- not cheap! Looks like I'll default to the fret swapping idea. I can pickup a set (25ct) of radiused and pre-cut Med-Jumbo frets of standard nickel-silver for about $10. I can use one (or even two) now, and stash the rest for a later refret if needed.

Edit(2): I found one product that is not expensive AND has some testimonial / history of bonding to and filling frets. I have no way of knowing if this is true, but at <$10 I figure I can give it a shot.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/SOLDER-IT-Silver-Bearing-Solder-Paste-SP-7/300916097

Supposedly, with the ability to bond to various metals and liquify at a relatively low temp, I should be able to at least give it a try. If it fails, I'll go to the fret swap plan.
 
Last edited:

kiwi blue

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I only had some minor fret levelling to do on mine.

Raising the pickup made a big difference. I cut a couple of normal pickup springs in half and put them between the pickup screws and body. I was able to raise it to within 4-5mm of the strings. If it leans, pack some foam under it to align the pickup parallel to the strings.

It's a 9k pickup with ceramic magnets and a sticky label "Bridge" underneath. Pretty thick sounding. I replaced it with a cheap 7.9k Donlis pickup and swapped in some A2 magnets. That gave me more top end clarity and reduced the thonky lower mids.

I replaced the pots with CTS. It's really easy to enlarge the holes in the body with a round file.

Agree about the tuners. They couldn't be much worse.

I'll be experimenting with an all rosewood bridge soon. But a better tune-o-matic would also improve the sound in a different way. I replaced a cheap zinc TOM on a Samick LP type with a Faber (with brass saddles). That gave it a nice full bodied chime. So that's what I'll do if I stick to the TOM, but at present I'm leaning towards rosewood to give it a vibe more like an old ES125T.
 

PhredE

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I only had some minor fret levelling to do on mine.

I'll be experimenting with an all rosewood bridge soon. But a better tune-o-matic would also improve the sound in a different way. I replaced a cheap zinc TOM on a Samick LP type with a Faber (with brass saddles). That gave it a nice full bodied chime. So that's what I'll do if I stick to the TOM, but at present I'm leaning towards rosewood to give it a vibe more like an old ES125T.

Ok, good to know. I was thinking of one I found on Amazon that was similar to the one you describe (the all rosewood base+bridge saddles) but instead had a bone saddle (like an acoustic guitar). Probably the sonic difference wouldn't be all that much, but having a better fit and better vibration transfer would probably help somewhat.
 

sloppychops

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Here's a photo showing the all wood bridge on mine:
Screen Shot 2021-10-07 at 11.25.53 PM.png


And here's what the Gotoh tuners look like.

IMG_1990.jpg


Here it is with the Gotohs on the right, stock tuners on the left. You can see the buttons are smaller. I looked for a set with plastic buttons, but it seems Gotoh only makes this set with metal buttons.

IMG_1986.jpg
 

kiwi blue

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Ok, good to know. I was thinking of one I found on Amazon that was similar to the one you describe (the all rosewood base+bridge saddles) but instead had a bone saddle (like an acoustic guitar). Probably the sonic difference wouldn't be all that much, but having a better fit and better vibration transfer would probably help somewhat.

I've seen those. They should sound fine. I'm limited by being left handed. None of the compensated wooden saddles are available with lefty compensation. Even the bone ones all seem to have compensation for the B string.

There are some uncompensated ones with straight rosewood or ebony saddles. But I ended up ordering a Hofner style rosewood bridge with six individual saddles made from short pieces of fretwire. There are four lengthwise slots along the rosewood top piece and the frets are inserted into those. Which slot the fret is in determines the string length and therefore the compensation. It should be possible to pull out the wee frets and insert them in different slots to get lefty compensation.

This is the type I'm talking about:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328...&terminal_id=1a1f3761ee8a451caa8471759a0256e4

Whether it really is rosewood who can say? It's cheap enough to experiment with and not lose much.

The stock bridge base appears to be stained to look like rosewood, so who knows what wood it is. Likewise, the fretboard has a black stain that comes off on the fingers for the first few days of playing, and the grain doesn't look like real rosewood to me (but I'm far from being an expert).

I agree the fit between bridge base and top should be as exact as possible for vibration transfer.
 

PhredE

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I've seen those. They should sound fine. I'm limited by being left handed. None of the compensated wooden saddles are available with lefty compensation. Even the bone ones all seem to have compensation for the B string.

Right, got it. One of the reasons that particular one appealed to me (aside from having used bone saddles on classical guitars for a long time..) was that they can be custom filed for height/intonation. If the saddle is a removal component, then you could do the same very easily. The removal bone saddle was a big plus so that one I'm really interested in. IIRC, the brand name on Amazon was Winomo (?)
Looked ok, and at about $13USD I figure I can take a chance and give it a try.

Edit: Thanks a lot for the info and suggestions. That's a good reality check at this point. I think I am not too far off in getting the bugs worked out. :)
 

kiwi blue

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Right, got it. One of the reasons that particular one appealed to me (aside from having used bone saddles on classical guitars for a long time..) was that they can be custom filed for height/intonation. If the saddle is a removal component, then you could do the same very easily.

Great thinking! That never even occurred to me. I may even have a bone saddle somewhere in my parts box.
 
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