New CuNiFe WRHB Electronics Questions

[Wazzou]

If they're out of phase it's not actually matter of uneaqual volume. It's how pickups are cancelling each other's signal. That creates weaker sound. Some like it, Peter Green was the famous user. Turning another volume down a little bit just alters how signals are cancelled, so it's perceived 'stonger'.

That is a good article posted by tele-savales (great name). Thanks for that.

So Sbs, you are thinking that these pickups are INDEED out of phase I take it. I need to look for my compass. Question though: the neck pickup is a humbucker. I understand that it has opposite winding between its 2 coils for hum cancel, but what about the polarity thing? This wasn't fully addressed in the article for a humbucker. For the humbuckers, is the polarity typically in opposite directions between the 2 coils? If so, in this particular guitar, should the "south/lower" coil be in the opposite polarity direction as the bridge's polarity direction, for things to be in-phase?

When I look at the Seymour Duncan diagram, I would say yes the "south coil" of the neck HB should have reverse polarity to my bridge pickup's polarity, for them to be in-phase.

The best case, one of the pickups have separate ground, then it's posdible to flip leads without grounding issues. CuNiFe doesn't have that.

You are right, there is only one lead and one bare wire for the cunife pickup, unfortunately.

 

[Wazzou]

Sbs:
I had one more thought. If my assumptions about a correct polarity relationship between the HB neck pup and the bridge pickup are correct, that is...the polarities should be in opposite directions, then Cou

 

[Wazzou]

...could I swap the screw pole pieces in the WRHB between the 2 coils to get the right polarity relationship between the lower HB coil and the bridge. I'm guessing so...

 

[bender66]

You're overthinking it.

Adjusting volume to balance pickups in the middle position is normal. If this is the issue you're trying to fix it's all there. Adjust your pickup heights to get the balance you like.

Contact Fender (or whomever) and ask if you received 2 of the same pickups. NN? BB? It's possible. These were approximately the same ohm resistance for neck and bridge bitd. Reversing the leads is easy, as you've mentioned. Dont go swapping bits around. You're opening up yourself to more confusion.

 

[red57strat]

I have a feeling that fender sent me a bridge WRHB mislabeled as a neck pickup. That would explain the out of phase thing wouldn't it?

So one possible work around came to me, but I'm not sure I want to do it. Reverse the bridge wires again, making the black wire the hot wire, yellow becomes ground. Then cut the existing ground jumper from the black wire to the pickup plate. And install a new ground jumper from the yellow wire to plate or bridge. That should do it right? The pickups did sound in phase with the bridge wire switched, problem was the pickup was no longer grounded.

I don't really want to do that to the bridge pickup though...but probably not a big deal.

Any other remedy ideas?

For those who may not know, the new WRHB cunife pup comes with only 2 leads. A white lead wire and a bare ground wire. I was surprised, I thought they were supposed to have 3 wires: black/brown/bare. I looked at images on google though, and sure enough, this is correct with the original 70s pups - 2 wires, one bare.

I think I have a bridge pickup incorrectly labeled as a neck pup.

I don't think the phase is different on the neck and bridge WRHB pickups. If you zoom into my pic you might be able to see that the logos and circle R are different on the neck and bridge WRHBs (these are brand new pickups ordered straight from Fender a few weeks ago).

You could try swapping the ground on the bridge pickup- or clip the ground and run a separate ground wire to the bridge.

 

[Wazzou]

Thanks for your comments guys, but I think it is getting lost that I have a '72 custom and not a Tele deluxe or a Thinline with 2 WRHBs. The bridge pickup is a single coil, and it was already in the guitar. I only replaced the neck pickup with a WRHB.

 

[red57strat]

Thanks for your comments guys, but I think it is getting lost that I have a '72 custom and not a Tele deluxe or a Thinline with 2 WRHBs. The bridge pickup is a single coil, and it was already in the guitar. I only replaced the neck pickup with a WRHB.

My comment to cut the ground on the bridge pickup and run a separate ground was based on your guitar having a single coil bridge pickup.

 

[Wazzou]

You're overthinking it.

Adjusting volume to balance pickups in the middle position is normal. If this is the issue you're trying to fix it's all there. Adjust your pickup heights to get the balance you like.

Contact Fender (or whomever) and ask if you received 2 of the same pickups. NN? BB? It's possible. These were approximately the same ohm resistance for neck and bridge bitd. Reversing the leads is easy, as you've mentioned. Dont go swapping bits around. You're opening up yourself to more confusion.

I only bought a new neck pickup and installed it with an existing bridge pickup.

Adjusting pickup height is not going to solve this problem. That would only work if one pickup was louder than the other by themselves. Then I might have to lower the volume of 1 pickup to bring the volume back to where it should be.

But, in this case these pickups are basically the same volume until I switch to the middle position, then the guitar volume is lower. To fix this, I actually have to lower the volume of the bridge pickup to 9 from 10. I am lowering a volume of a pickup to get back the volume of the guitar in the middle position. That shouldn't be happening.

 

[Wazzou]

My comment to cut the ground on the bridge pickup and run a separate ground was based on your guitar having a single coil bridge pickup.

Ok Thanks for clarifying. I guess it was the comment before yours that thought I had 2 WRHBs in the guitar.

 

[bender66]

But, in this case these pickups are basically the same volume until I switch to the middle position, then the guitar volume is lower. To fix this, I actually have to lower the volume of the bridge pickup to 9 from 10. I am lowering a volume of a pickup to get back the volume of the guitar in the middle position. That shouldn't be happening.

This is normal in the middle position. This doesnt make it out of phase.

Because of the pickup location (B or N) one is gonna sound different than the other.

Am I understanding this correctly? If not, my apologies.

I had to re-read the op. Single coil/ WRHB. Somehow I lost that along the way. Did you retrace your harness work?

 

[Wazzou]

red57strat,
Thanks for your post. I reread it in context with my previous post. I might switch the bridge wires and then switch the grounding, as you suggested. When I switched the bridge wires, the volume problem in the middle position went away. But I was dealing with a good deal of noise in the bridge/middle positions.

 

[Wazzou]

This is normal in the middle position. This doesnt make it out of phase.

Because of the pickup location (B or N) one is gonna sound different than the other.

Am I understanding this correctly? If not, my apologies.

I had to re-read the op. Single coil/ WRHB. Somehow I lost that along the way. Did you retrace your harness work?

Hey Bender66:

Yes, WRHB-neck/SC-bridge combo. I replaced all pots/caps/wiring in this guitar.
Neck: 500kvol/tone
Bridge: 250kvol/tone
Capacitors: .022 on both tone pots

It's dead quiet, the volume and tone knobs work as they should. Neck pup and bridge pup are at the same volume individually. In the middle position, the guitar sounds thinner and lower in volume, until I turn the bridge volume down from 10 to 9, then output is matched in each position.

I've had 3 people on here say that my pickups are out of phase, just because of the volume thing in the middle position. Like that is a "dead give away" for out of phase pickups. I don't know if that is true, but I thought it was interesting that 3 different people said that. I started to chase that theory down.

Now I don't know what to believe. Are the pups out-of-phase? Are the mismatched pots causing the problem, and the pups are actually in phase? I've spent a day trying to figure this out.

But from my experience, I shouldn't have to turn a volume knob down one notch to make the guitar louder in the middle position.

 

[SbS]

Hello.

We do not know anything for sure, just suggesting things based on the details you've told and our experiences. You must be the eyes and ears.

I know it feels complicated first, because there are several factors and possibilities. I tried most of the wrong ways, before learned to do it right at once. Like wow, so this is how it can go too! It's painful and slow process, but rewarding in the end.

Middle position is normally weaker too, just a little bit. Because pickups are connected in parallel, not in series. Less oomph. But ''normal' weak is like it is in other Telecasters. Out of phase sounds nasal and thin, it's different.

About hum, it's possible if bridge pickup has two leads and a bridge plate too, then bridge ground is connected through one of them. So swapping the leads creates ground issue -> hum. Best solution would be a three wire pickup, in the neck or bridge. Otherwise some soldering in the pickup is needed.

Learn how to reverse your pickup's polarity, with Multiple Leads!

Did you know? You can reverse the polarity of your pickup by reversing the pickup's leads. But wait! There's a bit more to it than that.

www.fralinpickups.com

But take your time, read, let's try to solve one problem at a time. If unsure you can put some photos of wiring and people can then see what is happening.

 

[bender66]

How does the questionable volume pot behave when in bridge position alone?

Could you have torched that pot?

 

[Wazzou]

How does the questionable volume pot behave when in bridge position alone?

Could you have torched that pot?

When in the bridge position alone, the output is perfect, and it matches the output of the neck pickup when switched in the neck position. Considering this, I think the volume pot is fine.

 

[Wazzou]

Middle position is normally weaker too, just a little bit. Because pickups are connected in parallel, not in series. Less oomph. But ''normal' weak is like it is in other Telecasters. Out of phase sounds nasal and thin, it's different.

About hum, it's possible if bridge pickup has two leads and a bridge plate too, then bridge ground is connected through one of them. So swapping the leads creates ground issue -> hum. Best solution would be a three wire pickup, in the neck or bridge. Otherwise some soldering in the pickup is needed.

Learn how to reverse your pickup's polarity, with Multiple Leads!

Did you know? You can reverse the polarity of your pickup by reversing the pickup's leads. But wait! There's a bit more to it than that.

www.fralinpickups.com

But take your time, read, let's try to solve one problem at a time. If unsure you can put some photos of wiring and people can then see what is happening.

Yes, the middle position on any given guitar will have less "bite," when compared to a single pickup by itself. In my situation the middle position sounds weaker and thin like you describe...until I turn the bridge volume down from 10 to 9 (meanwhile the neck position is still on 10). Once I do this the middle position has strong output similar to either of the pickups by itself. It sounds normal for a middle position.

I tried switching the magnets of the WRHB from one coil to the other. The magnets had opposite polarity as one would expect. I really thought this would solve the problem, but it didn't change a thing. So, do I have a phase problem? Maybe not. Maybe the middle position output issue is due to the 2 volume pots having different values. Neck=500k/Bridge=250k. I don't know why mismatched pot values would cause this issue. All I know about volume pots is that as the volume is being turned down the pot is "splitting" the voltage and sending some voltage to ground. But when the volume pot is on 10, all voltage is being allowed through the circuit. That's about all I know about volume pots.

BUT...when I did switch the leads on the bridge pickup, the output was matched across all three positions. But then I had a noisy bridge pickup, because it was no longer properly grounded.

So the pickups are probably out of phase. I can fix it by switching the bridge leads. I would have to change the grounding of the bridge pickup (as discussed in the article you provided). I don't want to risk ruining my bridge pickup.

I think I'm just going to live with it for now. Maybe a better solution will come to me at 3:00 am some night. Until then I will let sleeping dogs lie.

Thanks to everyone for helping me with this problem. Silver lining is that I know a little more about guitar pickups and pickup polarity now!

 

[SbS]

Yes, the middle position on any given guitar will have less "bite," when compared to a single pickup by itself. In my situation the middle position sounds weaker and thin like you describe...until I turn the bridge volume down from 10 to 9 (meanwhile the neck position is still on 10). Once I do this the middle position has strong output similar to either of the pickups by itself. It sounds normal for a middle position.

I tried switching the magnets of the WRHB from one coil to the other. The magnets had opposite polarity as one would expect. I really thought this would solve the problem, but it didn't change a thing. So, do I have a phase problem? Maybe not. Maybe the middle position output issue is due to the 2 volume pots having different values. Neck=500k/Bridge=250k. I don't know why mismatched pot values would cause this issue. All I know about volume pots is that as the volume is being turned down the pot is "splitting" the voltage and sending some voltage to ground. But when the volume pot is on 10, all voltage is being allowed through the circuit. That's about all I know about volume pots.

BUT...when I did switch the leads on the bridge pickup, the output was matched across all three positions. But then I had a noisy bridge pickup, because it was no longer properly grounded.

So the pickups are probably out of phase. I can fix it by switching the bridge leads. I would have to change the grounding of the bridge pickup (as discussed in the article you provided). I don't want to risk ruining my bridge pickup.

I think I'm just going to live with it for now. Maybe a better solution will come to me at 3:00 am some night. Until then I will let sleeping dogs lie.

Thanks to everyone for helping me with this problem. Silver lining is that I know a little more about guitar pickups and pickup polarity now!

Ok, that might be the case here, even it's kinda weird both being Fenders. At least different value pots shouldn't cause issues you described.

On the other hand, I had a DiMarzio neck humbucker and DiMarzio bridge pickup that were out of phase. Because neck humbucker was wound like PAFs back in the days. But there were enough leads and separate ground to solve the issue.

But good decision to sleep over it. Decisions will be clearer when not forcing it.

 

[bender66]

When in the bridge position alone, the output is perfect, and it matches the output of the neck pickup when switched in the neck position. Considering this, I think the volume pot is fine.

What I'm asking is is there a clean sweep of volume loss/gain when using the knob?

As said previously contact Fender and tell them what pickup your pairing with the WRHB. They'll know if they're compatible or not. You could find out if it's a phase issue yourself. Plenty of info out there. I'd do this before tinkering any further. A good tech could sort this out too.

 

[Wazzou]

Thank you very much for all of your help guys. I appreciate you all taking the time to click on my thread and contribute your thoughts and knowledge to help me out. Very generous.

As a side note, I actually have another example of this style of Telecaster coming in a few days. I bought a Fender American Original 70s Telecaster from Reverb. It has the CuNiFe neck pup paired with a typical single coil bridge pup, just like this 2011 '72 Custom does. Except, I don't think this guitar has been altered in any way. So it will be interesting to see first-hand how these guitars now come from the factory. The first thing I will do after an initial test is change the strings. I'll open the pickguard to look at the wiring/electronics. Also, I'll reread the Fralin article and test the polarity of the individual coils in the neck and the also the bridge pickup. I should learn something I think!

I'll report back here.

 

[Wazzou]

More information!

On the Lollar website, I found an exact description of the problem I have been having in the middle position. My pickups are INDEED out of phase. You all were right.

Understanding Pickup Phase

Pickup phase is an important concept when it comes to swapping out guitar pickups. In this article we de-mystify this sometimes complex concept, explain why it's important to understand and how you can troubleshoot phase issues in your guitar's pickups.

www.lollarguitars.com

The exact paragraph here:

It’s worth noting that, in a guitar that has two pickups wired in parallel, with each pickup having its own volume control, it is normal to notice a small reduction in volume when both pickups are engaged and both volume controls are turned all the way up. However, if the two pickups are out of phase, this drop in volume will be considerably greater and, if you roll down one of the volume controls, you’ll actually notice an increase in overall volume.

Finally, a concise explanation from a pickup expert!

Further still, this image below shows the polarity of the cunife WRHB:

Also here is a quote direct from Fender. This is copied from another thread on this site:

I'd been looking for info on the new Fender CuNiFe wide range humbuckers, so I could check if there would be issues with my planned pickup set. I couldn't find much in the way of technical info, but did see a few posts of other people being confused... so I contacted Fender. Here's what they said:

Thanks for reaching out.

Both are wound counter clockwise. The upper coil is the south side and the lower coil is the north side on both the bridge and neck pickups as well.

I hope this helps. Have a nice day!

I hope that helps anyone else who's been trying to figure out any possible phase / polarity issues when mixing the new WRHB's with other pickups.

This confirms what the diagram depicts. But why do they wind the 2 coils in the same direction? Shouldn't they be wound in opposite directions for the neck pickup to be quiet like? Just when I think I am beginning to understand this stuff!

Question:
For most Fender Telecasters with 2 SC pickups, is the stock polarity for both pickups North-up? My internet search says yes. If so, then this is why my new WRHB neck is out-of-phase with my existing bridge SC. Both pickups are out-of-phase because the lower coil of the WRHB is north up polarity and the bridge pickup is also north up polarity. Does this make sense?