New Boss: "Waza Craft"

Discussion in 'The Stomp Box' started by SynMike, Jul 15, 2014.

  1. JoeNeri

    JoeNeri Friend of Leo's

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    Several of the more technical, circuit-oriented members of this Forum have made the point that the components of any particular circuit, specifically the components and their respective values, are what makes that particular pedal's tone. Some (one?) of these members even has something to that effect in his signature.

    I don't dispute this. (Just personally am more interested in the tone itself.)

    With respect to the new Boss pedals, the marketing verbiage imply and the videos state that each circuit was meticulously "tweaked" somehow. If that is indeed the case, then the Waza pedals in stock/standard mode shouldn't sound exactly like the originals, as claimed.

    :confused:
     
  2. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Modded (and/or re-issued) Boss pedals - by Boss.

    1) I'm surprised it took them this long.
    2) If they re-issue or re-make the real Boss CE-1 chorus ensemble, preferably in small box ... they've got a customer.
     
  3. waparker4

    waparker4 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    The website says "Standard mode (the “S” position) provides the classic sound character of the respective pedal." what's not to get?
     
  4. JoeNeri

    JoeNeri Friend of Leo's

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    Newly revised, all-analog discrete amplifier circuit.

    I'm probably picking nits. Pay me no mind - I'm not buying the pedal anyway.
     
  5. Big John Studd

    Big John Studd Friend of Leo's

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    Boss is marketing? Those dastards!!!
     
  6. vjf1968

    vjf1968 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Well that seems cheap comparing how much an original DM2 costs if you can find one. And IIRC bucket brigade circuits are not cheap to do. Being made in Japan may also factor in the price since a large portion of their pedals are made in Taiwan.

    Just looked at completed listings on ebay. Original DM2's seemed to be selling between $250 (ok to good condition) all the way to $699 if in good condition and with the box.

    Yeah I think the new DM2 is a bargain.
     
  7. filmix2

    filmix2 Tele-Holic

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    1. Waza boots
    2 Waza hair
    3. Waza pedals

    Waza could go wrong?

    In reality I could live with these as my only 3 pedals. In non reality, I won't be if these total ~$600

    Domo but no Domo.
     
  8. Tritone

    Tritone TDPRI Member

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    I don't think they're made in Japan, just "inspected in Japan." At least that's what the stickers seem to say on the pedals.
     
  9. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    I look forward to the dissection and analysis of these pedals. I would laugh if it turns out the custom mode on both the SD-1w and BD-2w turned out to be an OD-3 copy! If they can't make money from the OD-3 innovations by selling OD3s, why not put it in another "improved vintage reissue" container and slather some marketing hype on it.
     
  10. thecornman

    thecornman Tele-Meister

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    The logo just doesn't bother me! It is the same shape, size and switching system I love about boss! The stuff on the outside is whatever to me. I guess if I got one and put it on my boss board it would always be easy to pick out on stage.
     
  11. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    I wouldn't be surprised if it was almost like what MXR did with the Badass Distortion - basically pre-package a DS-1 with Keeley mods in it.

    The daggone toggle mod thing for the SD-1 and other stuff has been out for so long now - doesn't matter if it's actually the 5 Star Mod or some other endless variation, because MOST of them are:

    - more gain

    - different clipping diodes

    ...and that's it!

    The "2X gain mod" is such a common thing now. If you're keeping the same high pass filter as stock, that just means that it's a substitution of two parts with the switch.

    Heck - the TS9DX has been out for years, and has 4 of these modes on a freakin' rotary.

    And the Keeley mod for the BD-2 is one of the more popular ones, and the toggle for that one just puts a bigger cap in parallel for the "phat mode."

    ...That's the cool thing about drive box pedal toggles (for those who like them) - it's easy to change the voicing, the clipping, and the gain characteristics with just a simple switch. IMO, that's why the first modding companies that made it big had to throw in "the marketing extras" - replacing lots of caps with "audiophile grade stuff," or putting in old carbon comps, or going overboard in the other direction with metal films.

    And - there was all the (IMO) unnecessary chip swapping. The Keeley modded BD-2 IMO is extra obnoxious in that most of the ceramic caps get shotgunned out for silver mica types. :eek:

    Long story short - how can you just add a toggle or replace a chip and justify what is a relatively big cost vs. the price of the mass produced pedal you're stuffing it in? There has to be "other important stuff that's done." :eek:

    Why do you think the bright blue LEDs were so heavily mentioned too, if they don't do anything to improve the sound? :confused:

    Nope - no OD-3 stuffed inside of these pedals. Boss need not go to the trouble. I wouldn't even be surprised if the OD-3 is never included in any kind of a special edition/special run anything.

    I think I heard someone mention that Ibanez has done something like this with the TS9HW, so why not Boss too? The HW and any other "edition" of the TS are all just plain vanilla stock TS pedals.

    So - why would most people even consider one of these three Boss pedals? Probably more for the stock aspects of them. It's like one of those mid-grade Strats offered by Fender - it might have different switching or a few other peculiarities, but the reason they are primarily bought is because they are Strats.

    Or...you can think about Budweiser or a Mustang (the car). It's more important to stick to the popular aspects in stock form, and not at their expense, when trying to offer a "premium twist" on them.

    I would be VERY surprised if the differences with the SD-1 or BD-2 were substantial. The only reason I suspect that the DM-2 will differ is because it "kind of has to." The most practical way to get longer delay times when using analog chips is to combo them with digital chips, despite what the marketing may claim.

    Someone also mentioned that this may have been the perfect opportunity for Boss to fix the bypass bleed issue with the SD-1. If they are adding a more gain setting, it kind of makes sense to nix the bleed thing. There's also "zero custom design" required for that - they can take the buffered bypass that is used on almost any other Boss pedal, including the old DS-1.
     
  12. SirJackdeFuzz

    SirJackdeFuzz Friend of Leo's

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    I'll stick to my $137.00, all analog Carbon Copy then, thank you very much !
     
  13. SirJackdeFuzz

    SirJackdeFuzz Friend of Leo's

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    Amazon.com: MXR Carbon Copy Delay: Musical Instruments@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/319%2BN4SgroL.@@AMEPARAM@@319%2BN4SgroL . . . full of Bucket Brigade'ness and no where near $200.00
     
  14. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    Maybe Analog Mike can throw his $.02 in on "the state of BBDs at production levels."

    I think his one delay is built to order by Daphon, but they obviously alter things for him right at the factory.

    Long story short is that there are different BBD variants, and you aren't going to get the more uncommon/more expensive one in the Carbon Copy, the Aqua Puss, or most of that stuff.

    And I think it comes down to individual impressions - some folks will point out almost immediately that something like the CC seems to have some "not so pleasing" characteristics. So maybe the more common and cheaper BBDs are fine.

    I've mentioned that I have a BBE Two Timer - two analog delay settings in one pedal, for like $120 retail. It goes on sale all the time. While the design is remarked as being inspired by the DM-2, I'm certain it has the cheaper/inferior BBDs in it. IMO, the delay times are not long enough for it to be an issue, but others may beg to differ.

    I have a Carbon Copy and like it for a lot of uses, but there's a reason IMO that the Maxon AD999 retails for 3 bills, and the 999 Pro is another C-note on top of that.

    ...So...let's just focus on the AD999, then. Anyone can grab the standard story here:

    http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/maxon/vintage/ad999

    ...with the important points being:

    "the hopes of analog lovers the world over were dashed when Panasonic/Matsu****a closed their BBD production line for good. Immediately the price of all types of analog bucket brigade IC's went through the roof, and many larger companies started buying up existing stock and hoarding it for the future."

    ...and:

    "Maxon was able to source a completely different manufacturer of analog BBD's."

    ...and:

    "Each AD999 comes loaded with 8* Maxon MC4107D BBD's for a total of 900 milliseconds [delay time]"

    You can see them in a row in this pic:
    [​IMG]

    ...Something like the older AD900 did indeed use the now defunct MN3005 (a pair of them) or MN3008 (four of them). It also was mostly based off the DM-2, with the big difference being 2X the delay time. The '900's advantage over the AD99 is 12VDC power operation for a cleaner sound.

    So - even with "the grail BBDs," companies like Maxon were using higher voltages for their flagship models.

    [​IMG]

    ...The Carbon Copy uses (or used, as these things tend to change) the BL3208 in a SMT package:

    [​IMG]

    ...and a quick little rundown of BBDs used for some more popular analog delays is listed in this thread:

    http://www.gretsch-talk.com/forum/pedal-pushers-forum/33801-analog-delay-bbd-chip-challenge.html

    "Maxon AD999 (8x Maxon MC4107D chips)
    MXR Carbon Copy (2x 3208 chips AFAIK)
    Dod FX96 Echo FX (Panasonic MN3005 chip)
    Behringer VD400 Vintage Delay (CoolAudio V3205 chip)
    Way Huge Aqua Puss MkII (CoolAudio V3205 chip)
    Frontline Delay (Panasonic MN3205 chip)"


    ...that is just a "FWIW - YMMV" kind of thing. Like I said - for many, the CC or Aqua Puss will be just fine. Or the Two Timer, or whatever. But other users are going to insist on stuff with the MN3005 chips or similar in them, I would think.

    So it will be interesting to see what Boss did with their own DM-2 variant. ;)
     
  15. chrisgblues

    chrisgblues Tele-Afflicted

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    My mind says "this is just a marketing stunt, don't waste your money"
    My heart says "buy them all!!!"
    I love Boss stomps...and these are factory modded...the thought makes me drool!
    M-u-s-t r-e-s-i-s-t t-e-m-p-t-a-t-i-o-n
     
  16. filmix2

    filmix2 Tele-Holic

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    Be sure to post your review. :D
     
  17. cousinpaul

    cousinpaul Friend of Leo's

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    There's a long discussion on Analogman's site comparing the Ibanez AD-9 RI with the limited-production Maxon AD-9 RI which uses NOS Panasonic chips. According to A-Mike, the differences become most apparent at longer delay times with more repeats where the Maxon retains more fidelity.

    I guess what's interesting here is that many analog delay users treasure the lo-fi warmth over longer delay times, clearer repeats, etc. How do you measure that? I can think of one pedal that's been mentioned in this thread which has been criticized by some for sounding too clear. Once the comparison demos hit and the circuit is revealed, I think the discussion is going to boil down to mojo. In this area, the new DM-2 has set a very high standard for itself...
     
  18. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    Yeah - the appeal of the BBD approach is that the repeats get more screwed up and distorted vs. the original!

    I guess like anything else, it's become a "have your cake and eat it too" thing. Users now want (or get bombarded with marketing that TELLS THEM they want):

    - longer delay times
    - repeats that aren't 'so grungy' or whatever
    - tap tempo
    - other 'creature comforts

    ...IMO, it makes more sense to kind of divide delays into two categories - old school analog with shorter delay times (e.g. primarily slapback), and nothing in the way of 'extras' that usually are sort of necessary with (what we've come to expect from) digital delays (that aren't intended to sound digital :eek:).

    I don't think you can, beyond some subjective metrics.

    "Veteran users" will typically weigh in with "what's more important," since oftentimes they have a super clear idea about what makes for a good analog delay, and sort of reject everything else. And companies/vendors who make this stuff will typically 'throw their weight around a bit,' claiming lots of knowledge/history building these things a specific way for users.

    ...For instance - I think the guy who makes that Nocturne pedal weighed in with the link I provided? It was a discussion about 'proper rockabilly slapback' that he was concentrating on, so that's almost a sub-category of 'analog delay correctness.' :lol:

    I agree. It's like any new incarnation of the DMM or anything else. It gets torn down to mojo, and how the differences either make for something better or different enough to be measured on its own. I rarely see the latter thing happen - usually it's something like a negative response to the high standard that's been set.

    ...This could be part of the reason why Tripps was reluctant to RI the Aqua Puss. I have to say that I haven't even dug into any discussion about A/B'ing the original AP vs. the newer one. I don't see how it could be objective, and I'd think lots of folks would fool themselves and conclude the older ones sound better "just because they should."

    I wonder if Paisley has an original AP in his effects rack drawer, or if it's a RI? My guess is that it's probably more than one RI's, as the originals probably aren't dragged out onto the road...
     
  19. filmix2

    filmix2 Tele-Holic

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    I can see how passionate users of Analog Delays can be, there are some cool tones to be had from each one.

    I do dig my CC, but I think I prefer the Analog Mode on the delays that I have.. Tap tempo on what is essentially a filtered feedback digital delay is just great for my purposes.

    I just had a thought though while reading a few of the above posts. What we need is a DD pedal with an external feedback loop send and return.. We could then send out the repeats out to an EQ pedal or a dirt box. :cool:

    I used to do similar stuff through the mixing console in the late 80s for fattening things like BG vocals etc. Although I would use modulation in the FB loop, not a dirt box.:idea:

    Is there a pedal on the market that exists?
     
  20. jj69

    jj69 Tele-Meister

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    Yep, the analogman ardx20
     
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