Need some info - tone pots for dummies

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

I know pretty much nothing about electronics or working on guitars, so I'm hoping y'all can help me understand something I'm dealing with. I'm not going to try to fix it myself - just want to be able to understand the issue as I'm working with the people who will actually fix it. Apologies if I give too much detail - I don't know enough to know what is relevant.

I bought a 2019 Squier CV 50s Tele that was heavily modded, including a Seymour Duncan full sized humbucker in the neck. It played and sounded great, but it had some issues. The person before me did the work themselves, and it appeared to be pretty sloppy work. I bought the guitar already knowing it had some electronic issues, namely the pickup selector switch had dead zones and the tone knob would mute the signal if you turned it all the way to 10 and applied clockwise pressure.

So, I brought it to a guy who used to work at a shop, but recently went out on his own. He did a setup, replaced the selector switch, and said he had to replace some kind of "plate" (I didn't fully understand). Finally, he said it was good to go. When I got it home, there was a slightly different tone pot problem. Now, the tone circuit basically didn't work at all (the tone was crazy dark), but it would work normally as long as you pushed down hard on the tone knob. This was not acceptable, so I took it back to him to address this.

This time, he replaced the output jack and supposedly fixed the wiring, and once again said it was good to go. This time, there was a new tone pot problem. It's like 95% of the tone circuit is being applied to the bridge pickup, and only 5% is being applied to the neck humbucker. The tone knob definitely does something to the neck pickup, but there is very little difference in sound between the knob at 0% and the knob at 100%.

When I'm in the neck or middle position, I have to run the tone knob at 100%, and even then the tone is extremely dark. It's not quite unusable at 100%, but it doesn't sound like a Tele, and doesn't have the great tone I enjoyed when I first got the guitar. However, when I switch to the bridge pickup, it's now got WAY too much ice-pick brightness. I have to run the tone knob around 50% to make the bridge position usable. Obviously, for the normal use-case of playing a song in the middle position and then switching to the bridge for a solo, this just doesn't work, as I would have to make big adjustments to the tone every time I wanted to change pickup positions.

The guy now wants to do a full re-wire, but he doesn't seem to know what the issue is. I'd really like to know what is going on here. I have never heard of this issue, so I don't know what it is or what the fix should be. Do any of you have any insight? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Peegoo]

@Heartbreaker_Esq

It's been miswired. The tone pot should have tab 3 unconnected. Only tabs 1 and 2 get used. On the volume pot, tab 1 should be connected to the pot case (ground).

Your tech needs a good wiring diagram to follow. He also needs to wire the Duncan humbucker correctly. To do so, join the red and white wires from the pickup and insulate the connection. The black wire is the hot wire that goes to the switch, and the green and bare wires need to be soldered to the back of the volume pot.

Print this out and give it to the tech. If he cannot get it working this last time, find a new tech that knows how to wire a guitar.

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

This is very helpful, thanks! Although my tech insisted he had wired it correctly, so I think at this point it's best to find a new tech.

 

[Peegoo]

This is very helpful, thanks! Although my tech insisted he had wired it correctly, so I think at this point it's best to find a new tech.

And even if he did wire it correctly, did he test both pots, the tone capacitor and the switch for proper operation? It is entirely possible that one or more components could be damaged.

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

And even if he did wire it correctly, did he test both pots, the tone capacitor and the switch for proper operation? It is entirely possible that one or more components could be damaged.

Great question - I'm not sure what he tested. I'll try to find out.

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

Alright, so an update: I ended up taking this to a different tech that I trust. The control cavity had a whole bunch of weird gunk in there. No one seems to know what it is, but it may be some byproduct of when a previous owner took off the poly finish and refinished with nitro. My prior tech made me aware of the gunk, but I guess did not clear it out. The guy I took it to said this was the issue - that this stuff was getting in the pots. He removed all the gunk and cleaned out the pots.

He says it's working now. I'm going to go pick it up after work, so fingers crossed that was the issue, and I can finally get to playing this thing.

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

Yep, I finally got the guitar back, and all is well! It's been in the shop for basically the entire month I've owned it. So happy I just get to play it now.

 

[Solaris moon]

I know pretty much nothing about electronics or working on guitars, so I'm hoping y'all can help me understand something I'm dealing with. I'm not going to try to fix it myself - just want to be able to understand the issue as I'm working with the people who will actually fix it. Apologies if I give too much detail - I don't know enough to know what is relevant.

I bought a 2019 Squier CV 50s Tele that was heavily modded, including a Seymour Duncan full sized humbucker in the neck. It played and sounded great, but it had some issues. The person before me did the work themselves, and it appeared to be pretty sloppy work. I bought the guitar already knowing it had some electronic issues, namely the pickup selector switch had dead zones and the tone knob would mute the signal if you turned it all the way to 10 and applied clockwise pressure.

So, I brought it to a guy who used to work at a shop, but recently went out on his own. He did a setup, replaced the selector switch, and said he had to replace some kind of "plate" (I didn't fully understand). Finally, he said it was good to go. When I got it home, there was a slightly different tone pot problem. Now, the tone circuit basically didn't work at all (the tone was crazy dark), but it would work normally as long as you pushed down hard on the tone knob. This was not acceptable, so I took it back to him to address this.

This time, he replaced the output jack and supposedly fixed the wiring, and once again said it was good to go. This time, there was a new tone pot problem. It's like 95% of the tone circuit is being applied to the bridge pickup, and only 5% is being applied to the neck humbucker. The tone knob definitely does something to the neck pickup, but there is very little difference in sound between the knob at 0% and the knob at 100%.

When I'm in the neck or middle position, I have to run the tone knob at 100%, and even then the tone is extremely dark. It's not quite unusable at 100%, but it doesn't sound like a Tele, and doesn't have the great tone I enjoyed when I first got the guitar. However, when I switch to the bridge pickup, it's now got WAY too much ice-pick brightness. I have to run the tone knob around 50% to make the bridge position usable. Obviously, for the normal use-case of playing a song in the middle position and then switching to the bridge for a solo, this just doesn't work, as I would have to make big adjustments to the tone every time I wanted to change pickup positions.

The guy now wants to do a full re-wire, but he doesn't seem to know what the issue is. I'd really like to know what is going on here. I have never heard of this issue, so I don't know what it is or what the fix should be. Do any of you have any insight? Any help would be appreciated.

This sounds like the capacitor may be going bad. Sometimes this can happen with the older paper in oil capacitors. They value drifts until it no longer works properly or at all. What it also sounds like from your description is that the potentiometers might be the wrong value - 500k instead of 250k. And finally the guy sounds like he was more than likely FIRED because he doesn't know what he's doing! It could be wired backwards from what the tone normally should be - where the hot lug on the pot should be is not soldered to the capacitor correctly. Is there somewhere else that you could take it to? If not the only other thing that I can think of if you can't or don't want to fix it yourself is to send it to one of us to repair it correctly. I guarantee my work and I don't gouge people. I use new parts and I can show you some of my work - no sloppy soldering jobs here.

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

This sounds like the capacitor may be going bad. Sometimes this can happen with the older paper in oil capacitors. They value drifts until it no longer works properly or at all. What it also sounds like from your description is that the potentiometers might be the wrong value - 500k instead of 250k. And finally the guy sounds like he was more than likely FIRED because he doesn't know what he's doing! It could be wired backwards from what the tone normally should be - where the hot lug on the pot should be is not soldered to the capacitor correctly. Is there somewhere else that you could take it to? If not the only other thing that I can think of if you can't or don't want to fix it yourself is to send it to one of us to repair it correctly. I guarantee my work and I don't gouge people. I use new parts and I can show you some of my work - no sloppy soldering jobs here.

Thanks for coming back to this. Since the last post, a couple of things happened. I had trusted guys set it up, and the electronic problem that started all this seemed to be addressed. But I was getting a lot of string buzz on the open strings, so I took it back to them to adjust. They said the buzz was mostly a problem with the pickup height, based on the former owner's DIY pickup routing job.

He opened up the control cavity and said the neck humbucker was wired out of phase, and in his view, I would need basically a total re-wire. I got it back home, and suddenly the main issue was BACK - tone sounds like its at zero when it's at ten. I watched, and the only thing he did was open the cavity and gently push the wires aside to see the connections. That was all it took to undo the prior "fix" and bring the problem back. I'm at a loss at this point.

Fortunately, the other thing that has happened since then is I got a new American Tele with a humbucker in the neck. So, the sound I have been chasing is now mine, and I'm less concerned about this Squier. I sold off some other guitars, but I'm keeping the Squier because I've sunk a lot of time and money into it, and I would like to get it working one day. But it's probably not worth the cost of shipping it back and forth across the country, in addition to the cost of the work itself.

 

[Solaris moon]

Thanks for coming back to this. Since the last post, a couple of things happened. I had trusted guys set it up, and the electronic problem that started all this seemed to be addressed. But I was getting a lot of string buzz on the open strings, so I took it back to them to adjust. They said the buzz was mostly a problem with the pickup height, based on the former owner's DIY pickup routing job.

He opened up the control cavity and said the neck humbucker was wired out of phase, and in his view, I would need basically a total re-wire. I got it back home, and suddenly the main issue was BACK - tone sounds like its at zero when it's at ten. I watched, and the only thing he did was open the cavity and gently push the wires aside to see the connections. That was all it took to undo the prior "fix" and bring the problem back. I'm at a loss at this point.

Fortunately, the other thing that has happened since then is I got a new American Tele with a humbucker in the neck. So, the sound I have been chasing is now mine, and I'm less concerned about this Squier. I sold off some other guitars, but I'm keeping the Squier because I've sunk a lot of time and money into it, and I would like to get it working one day. But it's probably not worth the cost of shipping it back and forth across the country, in addition to the cost of the work itself.

Well honestly it shouldn't cost more than $20.00 to ship the basic components from where you are to someone close to you - a couple days shipping at the most. It sounds like a ground may very well be loose if he took the pickup out and put it back in right away. Maybe you don't have enough space inside the route for all the wiring to sit correctly without being squished. I'd have to look at it for about ten minutes to see what all the hub-bub is about. It might be a wire on the neck pickup if you're having buzzing coming from the guts. And you wouldn't need a total rewire of the pickup - just reverse the wires between the coils. This makes an out of phase effect and will sound thin. Like I said - that guy sounds like he doesn't have the first clue what he's talking about!

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

Well honestly it shouldn't cost more than $20.00 to ship the basic components from where you are to someone close to you - a couple days shipping at the most. It sounds like a ground may very well be loose if he took the pickup out and put it back in right away. Maybe you don't have enough space inside the route for all the wiring to sit correctly without being squished. I'd have to look at it for about ten minutes to see what all the hub-bub is about. It might be a wire on the neck pickup if you're having buzzing coming from the guts. And you wouldn't need a total rewire of the pickup - just reverse the wires between the coils. This makes an out of phase effect and will sound thin. Like I said - that guy sounds like he doesn't have the first clue what he's talking about!

I only mentioned shipping b/c you said this is the kind of work you do, but I would have to get the guitar out to you in Indiana and back again. At this point, I don't know what to do. I want to find a local tech to do the work, but since I had such a bad experience, it's harder to find someone I'll feel comfortable with.

 

[Solaris moon]

I understand but sometimes you have to do what's necessary to get the results you want. Just think about it. At least you know that you have more options than what you had before.

 

[Peegoo]

@Heartbreaker_Esq

One thing that may be happening, based on your description, is there's shielding paint in the cavity that's causing a short to one of the tone pot's solder tabs.

Pop it open and take some clear, up-close pics of the components and the cavity. I'll bet we can figure it out.

 

[Skub]

Fortunately, the other thing that has happened since then is I got a new American Tele with a humbucker in the neck. So, the sound I have been chasing is now mine, and I'm less concerned about this Squier. I sold off some other guitars, but I'm keeping the Squier because I've sunk a lot of time and money into it, and I would like to get it working one day. But it's probably not worth the cost of shipping it back and forth across the country, in addition to the cost of the work itself.

Now you have a US Tele in good working order,you could use the Squier to learn the wiring and setup basics,really it's a simple design and you'll be surprised how little it takes to keep one in order. Also you wouldn't be at the mercy of all the 'techs' out there with little skill or knowledge.

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

One thing that may be happening, based on your description, is there's shielding paint in the cavity that's causing a short to one of the tone pot's solder tabs.

Pop it open and take some clear, up-close pics of the components and the cavity. I'll bet we can figure it out.

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

Now you have a US Tele in good working order,you could use the Squier to learn the wiring and setup basics,really it's a simple design and you'll be surprised how little it takes to keep one in order. Also you wouldn't be at the mercy of all the 'techs' out there with little skill or knowledge.

I've been thinking about this a lot, actually. It's sorta the perfect guitar to learn on, since it's simple as you say, and it's already got a laundry list of problems, so I won't feel bad when I inevitably screw things up.

 

[Solaris moon]

Now you have a US Tele in good working order,you could use the Squier to learn the wiring and setup basics,really it's a simple design and you'll be surprised how little it takes to keep one in order. Also you wouldn't be at the mercy of all the 'techs' out there with little skill or knowledge.

Yes - I was going to suggest a picture but if there's something that we can't see in them a picture in this case isn't worth much let alone a thousand words! I'm not one of those 'techs' out there with little skill or knowledge - I've been doing this for over thirty years. But I understand what you mean. As we already know from the first post that whoever he trusted apparently doesn't know a whole lot about guitars or electronics.

 

[SRHmusic]

I don't understand how a professional guitar tech could not test his work after thinking he's done (before and after screwing everything back together), or take care of simple, but important things like cleaning "gunk" out or replacing electrical tape(!!??) with heat shrink. (Even if he didn't put the electrical tape in there any decent tech would redo that connection and clean it up.)

So, yeah, great project to learn on, if you're so inclined. At least any issues will be your own!

 

[Heartbreaker_Esq]

@Heartbreaker_Esq

One thing that may be happening, based on your description, is there's shielding paint in the cavity that's causing a short to one of the tone pot's solder tabs.

Pop it open and take some clear, up-close pics of the components and the cavity. I'll bet we can figure it out.

See photos above - are these photos helpful? Anything else you'd want to see?

 

[Peegoo]

See photos above - are these photos helpful? Anything else you'd want to see?

Okay...GOOD pics!

It appears the wiring is correct, and there is shielding paint in the cavity.

If the tone pot rolls off all the highs when you dial it up to 10, there's a fault in the pot, because it looks like it's wired properly; tab #3 is not connected to anything, and that is correct.

I would swap in a new tone pot.