Need some help... headphone w/ Tone Master Twin issue

Discussion in 'Modeling Amps, Plugins and Apps' started by DimEyeGuitarGuy, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    Hey folks,
    So, by necessity, I have found that I need to practice more quietly in our townhouse. As some of you may know, I've picked the guitar back up after about a 25 year leave (playing piano during that time).

    The problem I'm running into is that, pretty much no matter what I use, my guitar sounds tinny, thin, brittle (hopefully you get the picture) when I play while monitoring through headphones.

    Now, the equipment I'm using to monitor with, I've used for a few years with my piano playing etc. Also to do some mixing and stuff for hobby projects in Presonus Studio One.

    Again, it pretty much doesn't matter which software or method I'm using. But...

    The main method I was trying to use is:
    My new Tone Master Twin (which sounds amazing in the room) using the DI on the back, into my Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 (1st gen) and monitoring with my Sennheiser HD 280 Pros. Now using the same settings on the front of the amp that I used for the room, the sound through the headphones are the aformentioned brittle, tinny sound. (I'm not a great or even good guitar player but I'd be embarrassed to record that sound)

    Edited to add: I should mention that I've tried listening through direct monitoring on the Scarlett 2i2 as well as making an audio channel in my DAW and monitoring from it. Doesn't change a thing.

    I've listened to quite a few videos online of the DI recorded (with them not changing the settings on the amp) and it sounds amazing. I'm clearly doing something wrong.

    Now while I'm not new to the headphones, audio interface, recording stuff from the perspective of the piano, I'm brand new at it with my guitar.

    Can one of you experienced guys/gals help me out? I sure would appreciate any help.

    Thanks,
    Tom

    PS.
    If this is in the wrong place, maybe a mod or admin would be so kind to move it where it would best be placed?
     
  2. NateD81

    NateD81 Tele-Meister

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    Do not mean to insult your intelligence but I start with the obvious: have you switched the settings on the back of the amp? By the DI our, there’s a switch with three positions. You want position two (sm57) or position 3 (emulated ribbon mix). If that doesn’t work not sure what to recommend as I have a similar situation without any issues.
     
  3. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    No offense taken. I should have mentioned in my original post... yes, I have actually tried all three settings. There are tonal changes for sure but it's still super bright and brittle (leaving the front of amp settings as they are for the room.)
    The position 3 gives a not so brittle sound (warmer) than the sm57 (pos 2) but there is still something wrong.

    Maybe I'm just not smart enough for this stuff :)

    Tom
     
  4. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    Eww duplicate post.. Sorry
     
  5. NateD81

    NateD81 Tele-Meister

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    Hmm - that is odd. Have you tried multiple mic cables? I have the TMDR and I’ll admit it’s not as good through the IRS vs. in a live room but I definitely don’t think mine sounds how you’re describing. If it’s not your mic cable or your settings, I’d get in touch with fender because that doesn’t sound right. If you adjust settings on the amp while listening, does it sound any better? It sounds like a faulty connection or like something isn’t seated right?

    Sorry this isn’t too helpful!
     
  6. 1300 E Valencia

    1300 E Valencia Friend of Leo's

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    I'd check to make sure the input on the interface (Focusrite?) is set up for a LINE input. Again, it's probably obvious, but the XLR cable is not being used as a mic able, but a balanced line cable.
    Also, there is a separate LINE OUT volume control on the amp's back panel.
     
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  7. codamedia

    codamedia Friend of Leo's

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    Keep in mind that a simulated output that includes a mic simulation will ALWAYS be brighter than the sound of an amp in a room. Example: Bend over and put your ear up to the speaker... THAT is closer to the sound of the simulated output rather than standing off axis several feet away (which will be much softer sounding).

    It is common to have to turn the highs down a little, and even boosts the mids more than you might normally to get that sound to translate the way you want it.

    If you simply placed a '57 in front of the speaker and monitored that, I think you would see that is actually sounds pretty similar to the simulated out.
     
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  8. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    Try a different pre/interface/mixer before calling Fender, would be my suggestion.

    I have not been impressed by scarlett preamps when I've done anything direct/line-in with them. I just haven't. MIC/48v is passable for home stuff. But direct or line-in was thin and brittle to say the least. Both high and lowZ. That's just been my experience.

    Same for cheap mixer pres, BTW. I have a cheapo behringer mixer I tried monitoring with an amp mic'ed with a 57. Brittle, brittle, fizz and brittle. Just sayin'.
     
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  9. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    Do you have a recommendation? Keeping in mind I don't have a lot of $ to throw at this
     
  10. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    I didn't mean you should purchase something else. I just meant try out anything you have access to, to try to rule out the amp being the problem. I'm just saying my own experience with scarletts has been less than stellar when used direct or with a DI.

    If you are looking for something else... I actually recently bought one of these on the cheap, and I think it is far better than the comparable scarletts. I only paid ~$60 or so open box. It looks like they've gone up quite a bit.

    https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro...ophile-2x2-24-bit-192-khz-usb-audio-interface
     
  11. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    Thank you for that recommendation. Unfortunately, I don't have another interface laying around to try.

    There could be something wrong with my interface for sure. There is no sound change between line and instrument. I would expect there should be?

    Tom
     
  12. codamedia

    codamedia Friend of Leo's

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    Instrument and line level should only change LEVEL, not tone!

    I'm curious... what are your amp settings and do you have a recording of your tone you can share?
    With the two of those I am sure we can determine if it's just a settings adjustment, or a problem with gear.
     
  13. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    I will make one. Give me a little bit.
     
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  14. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    On a 2i2 you would use AIR for an XLR DI. A proper DI puts a line level out to a LowZ MIC level, appropriate for a mixer (old school). The INST line would be highZ. You wouldn't want that for DI.

    It should sound better, fuller/warmer, etc... when properly DI'ed.

    EDIT: The tonemasters have "balanced" line out. Use the AIR setting on the interface. The amp also has a output level and different cab mic sims. What does adjusting the level do?
     
  15. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    Ok... Here is a pic of the front of the amp and soundcard. On the back, I have selected the sm52 IR, the DI volume is on 5.

    I just set the amp eq flat to 5, 5, 5. It certainly doesn't sound like this in the room. The guitar is plugged straight into the amp with no effects other than the amps reverb. No processing at all done in S1.


    20200127_123751.jpg
     
  16. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    Hey there. This is a 1st Gen 2i2 that I've had for quite some time.

    As far as the other stuff, nothing really changes tonality by changing the DI volume. As I mentioned, changed the ir selector does change the tone.. But even the pos 2 setting is still WAY brighter, tinnier than in the room.

    Tom
     
  17. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    I'm not familiar with the DI on the tonemasters. What does changing the volume on the channels do? Anything?
     
  18. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    Well, like someone said, the DI sound is emulating a close mic, which is going to be different than the room sound. Brighter and more "in yer face", as it were (less transients, reverberation from walls, etc...). And generally mid-rangey sounding, depending on the mic. Bigger studios often use multiple mics when recording - one close, and at least one room mic.

    I will say that my limited experience with amps with DIs out have rarely been stellar. Hopefully this is not an issue with the new tonemasters, as the DI option is a big draw!
     
  19. DimEyeGuitarGuy

    DimEyeGuitarGuy Tele-Meister

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    Just changes the volume. It's not doing anything at all for the brittle-Ness. Now, I can eq using the tone controls on the amp... But that is completely different than the behavior I've observed in videos about the TM DI recordings. In that, in those videos, the DI recorded signal sounds the same as the room mic recorded signals without changing the eq on the amp.

    Tom
     
  20. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    Well, their "room" sounds are from a mic, and edited for viewing. Just saying. In other words, you are likely comparing a mic'ed sound to an emulated mic sound. Your own room will be different. Actual live in the room sounds are always going to be different than mic'ed, close or not. A mic can only capture certain frequencies it's designed to do, and from whatever direction its designed to.

    A mic'ed amp sound to me is never as good as the ambient room sound. In fact, SM57s are not chosen because they sound like a room. They are chosen because the frequency and response at close proximity is pleasing in its own way, and also tends to work well in a mix with other instruments. Close mic'ing is done to minimize bleed from other sound sources. Live use it's absolutely necessary for a larger venue. The only other option is DI'ing. Often the DI sound is filtered in a way that emulates a close mic.

    I would guess that either the pre-amps in the scarlett are limited, which they are. Or, perhaps you are just not accustomed to the sound of a monitored, close mic sound. It definitely has its own thing going.

    But if you just bought the amp, if its under warranty, take it back to the store (or internet) and try another, or have the CSR try it out to make sure its working as its supposed to.

    Sorry to have been little help at this point. It can get frustrating chasing down issues when dealing with sound reinforcement and reproduction.
     
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