"Neck Twist" and resale value

Discussion in 'Other Guitars, other instruments' started by mlbchitown, Dec 29, 2019.

  1. rolandson

    rolandson Tele-Holic

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    You don't. You just tell the truth.

    A true story.
    I had a one of those "vintage reissue" Strats, this one came from Fender with a twisted neck...discovered of course after the warranty had expired (there's a whole 'nother story here, but that's for another time).

    Anyway, when it came time to part with, I put it on consignment with a local shop with the provision that every prospective buyer be informed up front.

    Lots of lookers, it was a very nice looking guitar, and they ran when told. Eventually I traded it to the shop for stuff and called it a day.

    About a year later I get a call from a fellow who's a student of a player I regularly accompanied. He says that he's having issues with his guitar and that the teacher recognized the guitar as my old one.

    He had one question: Was the shop aware of the warp/twist when they acquired it from me? Apparently the shop failed to mention it when he paid full value for it.

    But wait...! There's more!!!!

    Turns out this fellow is an attorney. He asked if there was anything that might corroborate the idea that the shop knew...
    I faxed the consignment agreement to him.

    The shop did not have a good day, week, month, year because of their dishonesty. Apparently this attorney made it a mission to extract justice...slowly, in the icy cold of space....aka civil litigation.

    Moral of the story. Be honest, take the hit, live happy knowing you did the right thing, and avoided unpleasantness.
     
  2. bgmacaw

    bgmacaw Poster Extraordinaire

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    Depends a lot on the competence and honesty level of the tech. I've gotten where I have limited trust for a lot of them but, on average, they seem a whole lot more honest than tube amp techs.
     
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  3. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Hahahahahaha yeah everybody is a tech and everybody gives medical and legal advice!
    I do agree that a lotta guitar techs are maybe not all they claim to be, and that was true long before youtube.

    I used to buy gear at a pawn shop and often saw the owner tell customers all sorts of lies.
    Really nice guy otherwise, seems some may have been taught that you tell the customer whatever it takes to close a sale.
    Bought a nice old Martin Tenor sax there that was in rough shape and one part time worker told me to put it in the bath tub under water for an hour or so to freshen up the dry (leather) pads so they would seal better.
    Nope! Didn't take that suggestion!

    Now we see entire societies can't agree on much of anything, and lies are used interchangeably with truths.

    Partly I think truth is often much more complex that folks are willing to digest, so lies are preferable to admitting we don't understand what the hell is going on.
    Note that those who are fully committed to their own simplistic rhetoric easily sound most convincing.
    Simplistic rhetoric is really akin to lies with loopholes.
     
  4. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    mitigation does not often result in amelioration. EB White wasn't wrong.

    Simple and direct is the closest we can get to telling the truth.

    What is the truth in this case? OP 'thinks' he sees a warp. Tech says, 'yeah, but I can fix' and does and OP has solid experience with guitar but decides to sell.

    The guys who talk the most in craigslist deals are usually hiding the most.

    If the neck is warped, cut it in half and eat the cost and end the agony that so many suffer.... oh wait, that price is a bit too high, instead, I want a clean conscience and TOP PAY. So, I'll tell my story, cleanse my conscience and maybe the guy will buy it anyway or use the old 'vise trick' (that fixes nada)

    The most open, honest response 'I have a guitar for sale, you are welcome to inspect it and play it. If you like it, you may buy it for X. If not, make an offer'

    Why is it okay for you to call a shop owner a liar and also help him stay in business?
     
  5. Dan Skammer

    Dan Skammer Tele-Meister

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    Yeah, both Ricks have dual truss rods , lotta stress especially on the 12 string, and they are tricky to make correct truss rod adjustments...
     
  6. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Fair question I guess, and sort of cuts to the chase of this discussion.

    I’ve always disliked the untold story aspect of pawn shops and found or felt that dishonesty was inevitable in such businesses.

    The shop i frequented where lies were common had the best prices on lots of cool gear, and I wasn’t funded for much else.
    It was run buy a pretty dysfunctional family with mom pop and two daughters.
    It wasn’t really a pawn shop, which makes little difference, they only bought and sold anything of value but it was run much like a pawn shop.

    Central Square in Cambridge was a seedy grimy little subculture a mile from Harvard, and the whole perspective was just what it was at the time.

    Fair point though that maybe I would not support a business like that today.

    And as far as detailing all the work that was done on a cheap guitar, that could go either way if it works well and the price s fair.
     
  7. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    I'd differ. I spent my youth in pawn shops and used gear shops. My education came from observing and learning and paying attention but counting on my mind and education and friends to get through.

    There are a million variables in other people's motivations and actions and reasons.... they are unreliable and that isn't going to change. Buyer Beware is the best lesson one can learn and maybe second is that if someone mistreats someone else and I am a witness, they are likely to mistreat me as well.

    If I witness someone ripping someone off, I say something even if it means that there will be upset.

    Conversely, I stay in my lane when people are shopping because I do not know what they are shopping for nor what their 'groove' is... making assumptions or putting expectations on other people is absurd... have them for yourself.

    If I owned the guitar in this post and I put it up for sale, if a purchaser asked me if anything was wrong with the guitar and I THOUGHT the neck had a twist, I'd say, "I am not a luthier, but when I look at the guitar this way (and show them) it looks like a little twist. I did take the guitar to a luthier and he was able to do a set up... I have enjoyed the guitar since then and not had a problem.

    End.

    But I would not advertise that, I'd just list it 'as is, used'.
     
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  8. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    Say slight neck twist but plays and sounds great. Ask a little less. Try to show an end shot looking down the frets from the headstock.
     
  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Well yeah I certainly learned stuff and paid attention in pawn shops and all other places selling stuff.
    I’m not sure where you differ, I mean I didn’t count on pawn shops to get through, and buyer beware is a rule everyone must eventually learn, but it still leaves pawn shops being structured like loan sharks except rather than breaking your legs they take your possessions.

    More life lessons like like don’t run out of money and borrow from a pawn shop to avoid eviction!

    I can’t say I recall seeing buyers getting ripped off but I recall many claims almost too ridiculous to believe. An example is claiming a 35wpc receiver was souped up to 180 watts. Was the old man senile? Who knows but most of his claims were ignored and I’m not sure he was really ripping people off.
    I found the deals were great there and the staff was entertaining.
    When the old man died I often talked with the daughter who took it over, she had a hard time losing him and didn’t run it the same way.

    I agree about staying in my lane in shops but sometimes can’t help but comment if I know more about the widget than buyer or seller.
    Yeah now and then I’ve pissed off a staffer but we all got our problems and have to walk through them.

    As far as how much we choose to disclose, that’s really our own choice and none is the only correct answer.
    The OP has to write the ad and live with the results.
    IDK what he can live with or how much he needs top dollar on the sale.
    I also don’t know how badly the neck is twisted and because I’ve done maybe 1000 setups I view “twisted” as definable and measurable.
    As I said in an earlier post, a twist in the right direction makes a superior playing neck.
    And the opposite twist with many frets dressed significantly lower is a neck with some problems.
    I would not buy a neck through guitar with the reverse twist and frets of all different heights unless it was super cheap and super cool.

    Interesting that some have said they’ve never seen a twisted neck.
    From that I presume that many players can’t recognize that condition.
    We also know that many players feel the difference between a good guitar and a mediocre guitar is a mystery.
    So again, it’s up to the OP to do whatever he can live with, partially based on how bad the neck really is or isn’t, combined with how good that model is expected to be for the price.

    An old Dano poplar neck with no truss rod might be given a little more leeway than an Ibanez Jem in terms of what we call good.
    I’m looking at the question from a tech perspective and not putting a moral value on it.

    We recently had a funny thread where a guy bought a Tele from a TDPRI member who played dumb about it possibly being vintage, while the buyer jumped on it without due diligence basically hoping to take an innocent fool for a few $K.
    Turned out what appeared to be an innocent fool was a foolish buyer who played dumb to get his money back while not actually lying as a seller.
    The second buyer paid $1000 for a beater partscaster, joined the TDPRI asking if it was an original blackguard and we debated for a week.

    We go round and round about counterfeit Fender decals For “personal use” and many feel they are fine as long as they tell a buyer about it.
    Slippery slope withholding info, but again we don’t even know if there’s anything wrong with the OPs guitar.
     
  10. Colo Springs E

    Colo Springs E Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I would take it to another competent luthier, have them look it over, and see what they say.

    If they say the guitar looks fine, I wouldn't say anything about what that previous guy said. If they confirm the neck is wonky, I'd feel obligated to disclose it.

    As an aside, if that neck is truly twisted, I don't know how it could be set up fine with ripping out the frets, planing down the fretboard, etc. So I'm inclined to think it is fine.
     
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  11. Spinaltap1

    Spinaltap1 TDPRI Member

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    I have a nice Tacoma acoustic, that doesn't get enough playing time, so I had a teach friend do a set up to it, and brought it to a Sam Ash looking to buy a new electric and trade the Tacoma in. After playing a few I found one I liked, and brought the trade in. Before it was out of the case the guy was saying the neck is twisted. Now it isn't, and I know that. They offered me $30.00 for it, I laughed, packed it up and offered them $40 for the tele. He was insulted, as was I. I try to play the guitar at least 1x a week, and really happy that I kept it.
     
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  12. Matthias

    Matthias Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

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    If it’s not an expensive guitar, is it definitely a twist not an uneven radius?
     
  13. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    You would? really? You'd take an inexpensive guitar to get additional service at additional cost to sell it?

    @SpinalTap I love those tacomas, if you do get to where you are gonna sell, I might be interested... we have 3 of them... great guitars, cool design and LIGHT!
     
  14. Spinaltap1

    Spinaltap1 TDPRI Member

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    @SpinalTap[/USER] I love those tacomas, if you do get to where you are gonna sell, I might be interested... we have 3 of them... great guitars, cool design and LIGHT![/QUOTE]

    I love the Tacomas too, light, and a fantastic sound. They used such nice wood. Fender bought them just for their stock of wood.
     
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  15. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    I love the Tacomas too, light, and a fantastic sound. They used such nice wood. Fender bought them just for their stock of wood.[/QUOTE]

    that is SAD! Fender could have really made some great guitars on the acoustic side...
     
  16. Colo Springs E

    Colo Springs E Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    What additional cost? I dont understand.
     
  17. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    I think you have to disclose what you KNOW, and not just say "as is."
    I'm bugged by ads on Reverb (for instance) where there is a pic of the back of an amp chassis with an extra jack added, and nothing is mentioned about it in the ad.
    Or a pic of a transformer serial #, but no comment on it.
    At best, it's the seller's ignorance, but then it should be said, "I don't know what this stuff is, but here are some pics for you."
    At worst, it could lead one to believe, "There's a pic of a transformer; surely he wouldn't post a pic of a wrong transformer and not say anything about it..."
    Ignorance is unavoidable...not so with omission.
     
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  18. TeleTucson

    TeleTucson Tele-Afflicted

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    Indeed. Why should it be any different than selling a house, where the law is quite clear.
     
  19. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    my point is that he doesn't "know" the issue he 'thinks' it.

    When you sell a car and there is a squeak, do you disclose that A) the front bushings are shot B) New hubs are probably needed C) the serpentine belt will need replacing D) as is.

    You say, 'as is' UNLESS you are an experienced mechanic and you know... otherwise, you are like the people who I have bought stuff on Craigslist... blah blah blah all this 'stuff' that is needless and not helpful.
     
  20. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    The law is different in EVERY single state. In most states, an inspection by a professional is required because, well, people aren't expert in their houses (Many can barely live in them) it is the inspector(s) who provide a condition report and from there a whole range of laws are in a effect (from radon in some places, to roofs, to you name it.)

    Most people don't know much about their houses, so they have inspections.

    Just as many people change strings and see themselves as luthiers when most of the setups I have seen are.... in need of further setup. Offering up warnings about a guitar is probably not that helpful and may dissuade a buyer from a perfectly good guitar...

    as is is honest... the rest is just noise.
     
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