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NAD Muchxs 5E3D

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by rghill, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. bparnell57

    bparnell57 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Talked to the man today. He's doing good. Working on my own souped up 5E3, if you can even call it that anymore, as we speak. Mine won't have interactive volumes, for a spanky clean channel, and hot rodded lead channel. Looking forward to when its done. He found some errors good old Mr Dumble made, in my opinion.
     
  2. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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  3. FenderLover

    FenderLover Poster Extraordinaire

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    Are you able to compare this to a stock/clone 5E3? I'm curious because there have been mixed reviews about the Tweedled version. Mostly because...

    Is this going to be kept a secret? Errors by MixMaster D or the person who drew the commonly available schematic?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
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  4. King Fan

    King Fan Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Good point. I don't tread in the lofty realms of Dumbledom, but I've certainly seen some builders who weren't enthralled by their Tweedle Dees. And before we even get to errors, I've heard that Howard D. tended to evolve his designs over time, and maybe make some values etc. a bit hard to decode, and maybe keep his actual schemes close to his chest, all of which might tend to create various and sundry right and wrong schematics done by others.
     
  5. theprofessor

    theprofessor Poster Extraordinaire

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  6. rghill

    rghill Tele-Afflicted

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    I don't have any basis for giving an A/B. By his own description, it sounds like this amp is somewhat tamer than a 5E3 and does that transition from clean to grind much more smoothly.

    It sounds pretty darn sweet though. I have been trying it out with my tele, strat, and Epiphone 339 with P90's. It seems to take the strat the best, but they all sound great. I need to try it with a humbucker equiped guitar next.

    I do have enough parts to put together a 5e3. I've been looking at something along the lines of a 5E3/5E5 hybrid, or 5E3P. But I have a Princeton 5F2 project on the table already, so it will have to wait.
     
  7. bparnell57

    bparnell57 Poster Extraordinaire

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    The Muchxs take on the Tweedle style amp is evolving into something entirely new that will very likely not be spread everywhere. The 10,000 dollar amp and knowledge giveaway era is gone, as with him on this forum. He needs to make a living. This is becoming something nobody offers. Best saved aspect is the balanced phase inverter.

    There are a few errors. Some by D and some in the schematic that is floating around. The errors are recognizable with some tweaking or calculations. Some are just layout improvements. Ultimately they are minor enough. Some are things that could, dare I say it, be improved upon.
     
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  8. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

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    Just talked to bparnell57 the old fashioned way, good old hardwired landline. He gave me a "heads up" about this. One of these days I have to retrieve my old Stromberg Carlson rotary dial. Didja know they still work on a landline?


    Some background: I participated in a discussion about fifteen years ago on the old Mission Amps forum. Topic was,

    "What is the best tweed Deluxe? If you were going to build one how would you do it?" The guy who started the thread went on to specify the best stock 5E3. Yeah, right. That's like the best stock muscle car. For example who needs an original Hemi Cuda with bias ply tires and drum brakes? How 'bout one that's so pristine you can't lean on it unless you're naked? How 'bout something that will do a (pick one) twelve second-eleven second-ten second quarter mile but still isn't nimble enough to stay out of Grandma's way in the Wal-Mart parking lot?

    Grandma gonna getcha especially if you're on a motorcycle. :rolleyes:

    Plug into the bright channel and turn it all the way up especially with humbuckers. "Tame" isn't the word that comes to mind.

    If it wasn't louder, tighter and more aggressive compared to a stock 5E3 I'd be (beating a dead horse) and building stock 5E3s.

    There's more to it than that, even.


    There are a few things about the stock 5E3 circuit I always thought were annoying. A stock 5E3 has raging distortion but the sustain craps out and leaves me high and dry when I try to hang on to a note. The stock circuit is practically allergic to gain. Whack it with hot humbuckers, it starts out loose and sloppy and gets worse. Sure, it's great with a Rickenbacker if you play in a Tom Petty tribute band. Sure, it will do Neil Young tones especially if you want to mess with the quirky interactive volume controls. The bad news is there is no clean headroom available at any appreciable volume from the stock version.

    Uncle Howie fixed most of that. Seems to me he did a few things just to point out the ignorance of copycats.

    I usually try to achieve the best version of whatever I do. A straight up clone is rarely better than the original.


    Even though Fender built the first Marshall and Marshall built the first reissue Fender, I've never been comfortable with simply copying good ideas. I've already created what I call "Evolution One" and "Evolution Two" versions. I made this thing mine.

    The Evolution Two prototype is in the hands of a fingerstyle jazz musician. He's using it as a Clean Machine and staying well clear of the seething overdrive tones further up the dial. Seems it's loud enough...



    That's my annual visit. If I've learned anything it's that I don't have time for these discussions. I've posted thousands of times already mostly answering the same questions over and over.
     
  9. Millebern

    Millebern Tele-Meister

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    Great to have you back. My MuchXs Morpheous is still my #1, nothing comes close for me.
     
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  10. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

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    I'll save you some trouble. IMO the "Prolux" is a poorly developed "fix" for a few annoying aspects of the 5E3 circuit. For the most past they all have the same built- in compromises. I used to point to tube data sheets. Looking at the 6L6GC tube data sheet, we want to glean a few plate current specs. We want to look at numbers for two tubes in Class AB1.

    We're looking at around 88ma at idle with around 140ma max, this at a B+ rail of around 360 volts. That's a good compromise voltage for both 6V6s and 6L6s.

    Might as well look at the data sheet for 6V6s while we're at it. We're looking at around 40ma at idle and around 70ma max, this at the "old fashioned" 6V6 supply voltage of around 300v.

    It's not complicated. 6L6 tubes require higher voltage and around double the available current compared to 6V6s.

    If our goal is increased "clean headroom" it won't happen with inadequate supply current.


    Just for giggles and knee slapping belly laughs, let's look at the big numbers for 6L6s. If we increase the supply voltage to around 450 volts where 6L6GCs are really "happy", zero signal plate current is listed as 116ma. Zero signal plate current plus zero signal screen current puts us over 120ma. That's uncomfortably close to the 120ma the typical "Deluxe" transformer has available on its high voltage windings. Max plate current is over 210ma. Gosh. Why is my transformer so (s)hot?! And wait, there's more! Might as well add on another 20ma at max screen current.

    I can only think of one PT that fits a stock 5E3 chassis and provides adequate current to run 6L6GCs in AB1 fixed bias, clean. That's the Allen Amps TP40D.


    It's either power in / power out or garbage in / garbage out. If we don't have adequate current available we have no hope of operating our P.A. tubes clean.


    Evolution 2 combines Tweedle and Morpheus resulting in the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup of amps.
     
  11. AndreDanican

    AndreDanican Tele-Holic Gold Supporter

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    That's my annual visit.

    Well, for my part it’s great to see you back, even if it’s only for a day. I still love my Morpheus!
     
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  12. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    When you gonna make The Buddha? ;)
     
  13. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

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    I'm thinkin' the people who make Budda amps would have a problem with that.:rolleyes:

    Although…

    I can get those funky triangular knobs they use. They cost around five bucks each. Got two of 'em already. One more and I got enough knobs for another 5E3.

    I'm thinkin' more along the lines of The Super Chitlin.

    It might be time to give that old Deluxe of yours a rest. :D



    There is a little room in Massachusetts that's sort of a 5E3 wonderland. They had an early small box 5E3 in there along with the last clone I built and then later the Evolution One test mule. The test mule came about when they claimed their original small box was a little louder than my clone.

    The original small box went down the road. A fairly clean '59 recently replaced it.
     
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  14. L.A. Mike

    L.A. Mike Tele-Afflicted

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    Nice to read your comments again
    Have you ever posted your opinion on the Bruno Tweedy Pie 18 (5E3) that Tony Bruno used to make? I know it was expensive when new.
    Most "boutique amps" are.
    The reason I asked is, I borrowed one for a few months and gigged in clubs with it. It sounded much better than the old Fender 5E3 amps. Was actually able to get the volume up real high before it started breaking up and the low end didn't sound like elephant farts.
    I recently bought it to help a friend out of a financial jam he was in.
    I'm not a tech, so I don't know what improvements (if any) he made to the 5E3 circuit.

    Even though I have the Bruno now I am still waiting for one of yours to come up for sale somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  15. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Pic of the circuit board??
     
  16. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

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    Re: Bruno Tweedy pie:

    Google is your friend here. I was able to find a gutshot PDQ. Nuthin' groundbreaking there, just big fat orange drops, an FR4 board and a relatively literal 5E3 layout. The .022 coupling cap into the PI takes a shortcut across the board eliminating a few inches of wire. The big long leads to the 6V6 grids are still big and long. Frankly it's difficult to get away from that using anything similar to the stock layout.


    In general a tweed Deluxe is never an "18 watt" amp. That's a marketing gimmick. A lot of the tweed Deluxe guys starting calling their amps "18 watt" in response to the proliferation of real 18 watt EL84 based amps a dozen or so years ago.

    It doesn't really matter except many musicians think there's a linear relationship between power and volume. The classic Urban Legend is "I can't keep up with my drummer unless I have (pick one) 30 watts-60 watts-100 watts or more.



    Cathode biased 6V6 tubes running at the voltages they were designed to run at make 12 watts per pair. They only make 12 watts per pair if there's enough grid excitation to drive them. They only make 12 watts if there's enough plate current available to make 12 watts.

    Look at the back panel of a '70s Princeton Reverb. It lists its output as 13 watts RMS if I remember correctly. The '70s version makes its "13 watts" with around 400v @ 100ma on the B+ rail, class AB1 fixed bias. The fixed bias part is important. The 6V6s tubes are effectively seeing well over 400v because the grids are below ground potential.

    If you want an "18 watt" 5E3 use 6L6 tubes under the conditions described above. By the same token "30 watt" Prolux versions are generally a buncha hooey as well. Yes, it's possible. No, it's not often executed in a manner that yields a genuine 30 watts output.
     
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  17. homesick345

    homesick345 Poster Extraordinaire

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    welcome back!!!!! :) :)
     
  18. King Fan

    King Fan Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Annual visit? It’s a shame. Your knowledge and wit are sorely missed. Even worse, in your absence, good muscle car analogies have become an endangered species....


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  19. L.A. Mike

    L.A. Mike Tele-Afflicted

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    I have one gut shot in the thread I started here when I finally bought the amp. https://www.tdpri.com/threads/ngd-5e3-bruno-tweedy-pie-18.966316/
    When I get a chance I'll try to get some of the transformers too.
    I think the cabinet material/construction and the speaker have something to do with why mine sounds so good.
    I suspect he also used bigger iron too.
    Mine craps all over a Deluxe Reverb a friend has as far as clarity, low end and tone goes. I like mids and the Deluxe doesn't have much of that. But the Deluxe collapses sooner than my Bruno.
     
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  20. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

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    We'll cue up Cher, "If I could turn back time" and review a little personal history.



    There was a time that was the Number One pole dancing tune in the U.S. and Canada, probably worldwide. Don't ask me how I know!


    I initially got my degree in Journalism. I started out with journalism, broadcast production, broadcast tech, stagecraft and a touchy-feely "communications" degree that was more about the psychology of communication than it was about the mechanics. That's not to say I'm "The World's Greatest Communicator" 'cuz I'm not even close. I'm a technician because I'm far more comfortable with machines than I am with people.

    One of my mentors started out in Military Intelligence before Military Intelligence became the CIA. He did a 20 year stint at The Washington Post and taught journalism and a few creative writing courses at the local college when he retired.


    Like I said I've always been more comfortable with machines than I am with people. So off I went, a journeyman Journalist, a cameraman for The Evening News.

    I very quickly learned that an Ikegami HL-79 was a heavy pig. The total gear load became even heavier with an Ampex 1" Type C "portable" deck dangling off one side of me. Betacam became the standard a few years later. By that time I had a cushy leather chair with an ADO, a CMX3400, a Grass 300 and a bank of video monitors in front of me. Had banks of VPR-3s in the next room.

    I had an absolutely rotten punk attitude at the time not at all dis- similar to my Brother From Another Mother, G.G. Allin. G.G. went to Concord High School in the next town over. A mile or two of geography would have put me in the same school as G.G and perhaps eventually on the same stage.

    My attitude didn't help anything.

    G.G. set out "to make rock 'n' roll dangerous again." He eventually crossed that one off his Bucket List for sure.

    I wasn't that extreme of course. After all, I lived to tell about.

    Rock 'n' roll should have a warning on it like cigarettes. "Rock 'n' roll may be hazardous to your health..."


    Journalism requires authentication and attribution of sources or at least it used to. There are thousands of independent "news" channels now, many of them with little or no editorial oversight. Thus, "fake news" and the proliferation of mis- information.

    It's still possible to fall from grace in The Big Leagues. Take Brian Williams for example. He went from a gig anchoring The Big Show on the NBC Evening News to a position on cable news he may never rise above. The story was about a helicopter that came under fire that apparently emulated but didn't exactly match the facts.


    Hunter S. Thompson said,

    "Don't let the facts get in the way of the truth."

    I probably just mis- quoted him.


    Academia still maintains relatively high standards for attribution and authentication. I'll present this vignette in general terms with names and location redacted:

    Several of my associates are high powered doctors at the local medical school. Considering our proximity to Boston we could be talking about a number of medical schools. In any case the doctor we're talking about was a department head. He had numerous teaching assistants including my girlfriend. I'm a technician. She's a scientist.

    I have wandered way too far from The Trailer Park...

    As I said, our esteemed doctor was a department head at The University. He did clinical work at the medical center as well as at another national health organization. If I name the organization the more astute among us will be able to triangulate and pinpoint an exact location.

    Let's just say it must have been a living (female canine) to keep our esteemed doctor's paycheck straight.

    At issue was a slide that our esteemed doctor used in several of his courses at The University. The slide was based on subject matter our doctor had published and held copyrights to.

    However,

    The actual slide in question was created by one of our esteemed doctor's teaching assistants. Yes it was based on our doctor's copyrighted material but the teaching assistant created the actual slide. Our doctor presented the slide over and over in the context of his classes. No harm, no foul apparently.

    The problem arose when he published a facsimile of the slide without attribution. Our doctor's teaching assistant complained to The University's administration. Our doctor was found guilty of plagiarism and unceremoniously given the bum rush out the back door and off the loading dock next to the dumpster. He went from The Penthouse to The Outhouse so fast it made my head spin.

    I guess he's operating an Urgent Care in North Dakota, now.



    Here's the way I see it:

    As far as I'm concerned I'm a primary source, an originator. If I choose to post something here on the TDPRI that's where I choose to post it. I do not authorize re- posting on Plagiarism dot Com or anywhere else. Way I figure it I'm like NASCAR or the NFL. They don't authorize use of their copyrighted material without express written permission.

    I'm probably operating in a grey area. The likely situation is anything I post here becomes the property of the TDPRI. I'm o.k. with that, pretty close to just fine, actually.

    It says somewhere on the TDPRI's front page, "get answers to technical questions"...

    Seems to me I'm qualified to provide answers to technical questions. Been there, done that!

    As I've mentioned there are likely better ways to utilize my time.


    The part I think is just freakin' rude is re- posting the text to my eBay listings, unauthorized images of my amps, etc.. It makes copyrighting anything I may publish in the future problematic. I may have to track down and ask permission to publish material I originated. If you think about that it's like keeping track of the last ten year's worth of your fingernail clippings...

    Ask first. Get permission. Don't assume. If you can't get permission you don't have permission. Otherwise you're the tip of the iceberg in a vast group of hackers and data thieves, people who have no respect for etiquette, boundaries or more to the point, intellectual property.
     
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