My issue with modern SS amps...

[Jakedog]

As a mostly clean player, SS suits me just fine. The thing that bothers me about the is the lack of tweaking ability. Can’t swap tubes for different flavors, or add a midrange control to a 65 Bassman

That, and what you hear are basically idealized versions of what someone else heard in a classic tube amp of the past, and converted that sound to 1s and 0s.

No ones and zeros in analog amps. They’re basically the same as tube amps, but instead of tubes they typically use op amps or mosfets for preamp functions, and transistors for output functions. No digital processing.

 

[corliss1]

Like @Jakedog said, the Orange Crush series amps are beautifully built, and all analog (with the exception of the reverb) so they are actually fixable. The Crush Pro stuff is all op-amp based (at least the ones I've seen) and very serviceable. I wouldn't feel scared working on one of those amps at all, because they actually have components instead of computers.

 

[Bourbon Burst]

I have a SS 1969 Harmony guitar and a SS 1969 Sears Silvertone bass amp with the original 15 inch Jenson. That are both still going strong. I use the Harmony a lot for practice as well as an 80s Crate SS amp. Those things were built to last as well as Peavey amps. All 3 of the amps were given to me and amps like that are all over craigslist, Reverb, Ebay, etc. really cheap.

 

[11 Gauge]

You know, everyone talks about tube amps lasting 50 or 60 years, I never hear about how much it costs to keep one running for that long. My DRRI was rock solid for almost 30 years, but it’s been in the shop twice this year and the reverb is not working again. My ‘66 Bandmaster was in last year and it just shut down this week.

I’m not complaining, I love my tube amps, but I’m really sick of people acting like the tube amp they bought in 1966 for $200 hasn’t cost them a penny since.

If you want to compare costs of SS vs tube, you need to calculate the ENTIRE cost of ownership.

Absolutely agree.

My biggest climbing cost with my tube amps is tube replacements, specifically power tubes. Many NOS tubes have now gotten too expensive to be a viable option, and a lot of the currently made stuff just doesn't seem to last very long, AND it's getting relatively expensive, too.

Back when I could get a matched pair of 6L6s for $25, these costs were tolerably low. Now, the cheapest that I see is like roughly $45 or so.

If I were able to accurately calculate the cost of ownership to the present, I'd say that my tube costs and my filter cap costs just by themselves are probably at least 60% of what the amp initially cost me.

Another 'hidden cost' with old tube amps (for me, anyway) also tends to come in the form of speaker swapping or replacement, trying to find the right new speakers that provide the same sound as the old ones did. This doesn't really exist with SS amps, IME. With those, it's typically just an issue of maybe having to replace a crappy factory speaker with a better one, so it's a one time event.

 

[WireLine]

No ones and zeros in analog amps. They’re basically the same as tube amps, but instead of tubes they typically use op amps or mosfets for preamp functions, and transistors for output functions. No digital processing.

True…I was referring to ‘modern’ amps which use digital for everything. Sorry for not being clear.

 

[Blrfl]

Comparing modern amps that were built to fill a low price point to vintage amps that were big bucks when they were new isn't really an honest or accurate approach.

This stuff suffers from a fierce case of survivorship bias, where the things from way back when that survived until now must have been all the things way back when. People forget that there were plenty of old amps built to low price points. They're plentiful if you dig deep enough in the landfill.

 

[Beachbum]

All I can say about that is this early 80's solid state preamp Peavey that I got new never needed a single repair in all those years.

On the other hand my Blues Jr. III crapped out after only 3 years and with the used value vs. the cost of repairs there's no getting around the fact that finacially it's not really worth fixing. When it comes to tube amps much like Las Vegas where I live everyone talks about when they win but no one talks about when they lose.

I've come to the conclusion that solid state/modeling amps have finally reached the point of state of the art. They look great and they sound great. As far as longevity goes who knows. What I do know is that if I spend $500 on one and it craps out in 3 years my cost has only been a little less than $14 a month for the use of it. Much like my washer and dryer it does the job for as long as it does and then I buy new ones. It seems to me that we may have reached the age of disposable amps and not being a sentimental sort of guy I guess I'm OK with that.

 

[Mowgli]

The last two years, I sold off my complete collection of vintage Fender tube amps. I kept one Fender tube amp, one that is not vintage. I gig regularly, most every weekend....and the ones doing the work are my beloved 80's Peavey Special 130's. Great sounding, reliable, excellent amps that will do the job anytime and anywhere. Hands down the best amps I have owned. Old school Solid State.

I like everything you said. I own 2 Peavey 130s (one cost $130 and the other $45). I recommend the Burr-Brown IC swap if you want a warmer tone (not necessary unless you play clean jazz or Western swing and even then it may not be necessary- ymmv). I run a Fuchs Verbrator (affordable Dumble-ator) through the passive effects loop for both an even warmer “cathode follower” tube-buffered tone and a great digital reverb. And it takes pedals incredibly well, too. I haven’t found anything to dislike about it.

My only differing comment is that I don’t consider these ‘80s Peavey SS amps “old school SS.” I’ve played through cheap 60’s and really early 70s old school SS amps and most of them sounded brittle and sterile… the exception being a high wattage Silvertone solid state amp with its 2x12 closed back cabinet. I didn’t run any OD pedals though it but the cleans actually sounded really good.

Those 130s are very underrated IMO!

 

[Telecastoff1]

My only differing comment is that I don’t consider these ‘80s Peavey SS amps “old school SS.” I’ve played through cheap 60’s and really early 70s old school SS amps and most of them sounded brittle and sterile… the exception being a high wattage Silvertone solid state amp with its 2x12 closed back cabinet. I didn’t run any OD pedals though it but the cleans actually sounded really good.

I hear where you're coming from regarding the very early 60's and perhaps even 70's SS amps. A band mate traded in his perfectly good 60's single Showman for a brand new Fender Solid State Showman or SS Twin in the late 60's, I believe. I remember that amp was the most terrible sounding amp I had ever heard at the time. He couldn't get any kind of familiar Fender tone out of that thing. He had it for a week or two as I recall and traded it back in (at a loss, I'm sure) for his old Showman. He never owned another SS amp ever again after that. And it was many years before I would own or even consider trying out a SS amp. My very first SS amp was a two year old 1983 Peavey Special 130. I was instantly reeled-in and have been hooked ever since. Compared to the newer SS and Digital amps, my old 80's Peavey are "old-school" in the way they were built and laid out, so similar to tube amps and just about as easy to work on if the need arose. Plus, it became very "normal" in the 80's to see Peavey amps on pro stages just about everywhere I travelled. Anything SS built before that in the 60's and 70" hadn't gotten it "right" yet and were still in the learning stages....not good enough for main stream musicians or to eventually be called "old school".

 

[Mowgli]

I hear where you're coming from regarding the very early 60's and perhaps even 70's SS amps. A band mate traded in his perfectly good 60's single Showman for a brand new Fender Solid State Showman or SS Twin in the late 60's, I believe. I remember that amp was the most terrible sounding amp I had ever heard at the time. He couldn't get any kind of familiar Fender tone out of that thing. He had it for a week or two as I recall and traded it back in (at a loss, I'm sure) for his old Showman. He never owned another SS amp ever again after that. And it was many years before I would own or even consider trying out a SS amp. My very first SS amp was a two year old 1983 Peavey Special 130. I was instantly reeled-in and have been hooked ever since. Compared to the newer SS and Digital amps, my old 80's Peavey are "old-school" in the way they were built and laid out, so similar to tube amps and just about as easy to work on if the need arose. Plus, it became very "normal" in the 80's to see Peavey amps on pro stages just about everywhere I travelled. Anything SS built before that in the 60's and 70" hadn't gotten it "right" yet and were still in the learning stages....not good enough for main stream musicians or to eventually be called "old school".

In the 80s, Peaveys, Music Mans and Boogies were everywhere; you nailed it. I saw Steve Morse on one video from the 80s playing live with Peaveys and he sounded glorious!

I once spoke with a really nice Peavey representative (last name was Brown?) who was tight with Hartley. I asked why Peavey didn’t revisit those popular models from the past and he said Hartley liked to move on and not live in the past. A lot of people would love to see him reissue many of the real Peavey winners like the 130, the Bravo, old Bandits, etc.

 

[ReverendRevolver]

Great point!!! A Deluxe Reverb in 1965, todays dollars would be around $2200. There are very high quality ss amps that will likely outlive you, but not for 300 bucks. There were tube amps for the equivalent of a couple hundred bucks todays dollars back then too. Where are they? Landfills and you have likely never heard of them.

Those old tube amps, with thier chipboard enclosures, are typically either in a landfill or worth $$, because so few are left not in a landfill. The slow climb of the Sears/Silvertone cases with the amp in them come to mind.
My Peaveys are all older than I am (I sold my last 90s one many moons ago). The 4 I have were my late grandfathers. Some he mightve bought new, but I'd wager at least the Bandit was used, and cheap. I'm certain it has a chance to outlive me, and I'll be the second owner my kids can prove it outlived.
You can pick up used 2×12 ss Peaveys for <$200 all the time. They will at least outlast thier owners ability/willingness to hulk a 90+ pound amp around town.
My first big tube amp had been serviced before I bought it in the early 2000s. Dozens of gigs, hundreds of practices. The worst thing I've probably done to it is let it sit only used 2-3 times a year for the last few years. It might need a checkup this year or next.
If an amp with initial investment of ~$450(adjusting up $150 from inflation) needs ~$200 in service every 2 decades, it's exponentially better than any car I've ever owned.

 

[hopdybob]

i have a peavey express 112 blue stripe with a great clean that is good serviceable and has the regular old amp problems like scratchy pots and corroded jackinputs.
the only issue could be the, to me, strange pot build



a little crate 15r is a great little ss amp to, and again, a jackinput that is wacky
so there are enough rough diamonds

 

[ReverendRevolver]

i have a peavey express 112 blue stripe with a great clean that is good serviceable and has the regular old amp problems like scratchy pots and corroded jackinputs.
the only issue could be the, to me, strange pot build



a little crate 15r is a great little ss amp to, and again, a jackinput that is wacky
so there are enough rough diamonds

My dad has had issues finding the correct physical size pots to replace non functioning one in his Peavey PA(but ordered smaller, correct value ones). My drummer, who has loads of live sound Peavey stuff, typically has no problems finding parts, but the pots aren't normally the things needing fixed on his stuff.
Eventually we may see 80s SS amps with 1 pot tinier than the rest, if the problem continues.

 

[naveed211]

I played Quilter for a while, seemed to be built as well or better than any SS amp I’ve ever seen. I don’t think there’s a ton going on inside them either, so I’d imagine they’re repairable without much fuss.

I play Fender Tone Masters now. Maybe not a forever amp, and if the “computer/processor/whatever modeling tech is” goes bad then who knows, but I really don’t see why it couldn’t be reliable for another 15-20 years, most computers and modeling amps are.

 

[Strat Jacket]

I play Fender Tone Masters now. Maybe not a forever amp, and if the “computer/processor/whatever modeling tech is” goes bad then who knows, but I really don’t see why it couldn’t be reliable for another 15-20 years, most computers and modeling amps are.

How do the ToneMaster amps stack up against the Katanas and Fender Mustangs of this world in your opinion?

 

[MilwMark]

I must be lucky. Like @Jakedog my local tech is an actual engineer. EE. Worked as an engineer for awhile while DJing and doing sound for some clubs in town. Which lead to him fixing all their PA equipment and then everyone’s PA equipment. Then keys, amps, etc. That’s what he loved so he became certified by all the biggies. He doesn’t seem to find SMT intimidating. He’s repaired a couple things on my Jazz chorus. And if a component is legacy he just looks at a spec sheet and there’s an east sub.

I have a Roland Super Cube 60 en route. I foolishly let one go. To me they do an excellent JCM800 or JCM900 sound (too of my faves) but st a fraction of the weight and without burning through tubes or needing to be ridiculously loud to do their thing. Oh, and they are INCREDIBLY loud and PUNCHY. Like, punch you straight in the chest.

I still love the JC77 and JC40 more overall. But they only get up to good Classic rock saturation (with excellent dynamics) whereas the Super Cube gets to 80s and 90s glam metal and punk.

 

[loopfinding]

I agree with what you said but would add three things to consider.

As solid state builds become smaller and smaller even knowledgeable repair people may find that working on some “surface mounted” components requires expensive tools that can’t be justified buying and experience they may not have to pull off the repair. Tiny surface mounted components are the future of electronics in general.

Some of the old transistors and opamps are no longer made and some even lack usable substitutes. In those cases no repair person can fix it for lack of replacement parts.

Lastly, home repairs of most handwired tube amps require old tech equipment which is relatively inexpensive (DMM, VOM, old scope, old signal generator, decent school Weller or Haiko iron) and, with a little bit of education, can routinely be repaired and even modded at home - VERSUS - (IMO) solid state tech requires more education and more controlled repair environments (e.g. to prevent electrostatic discharge, more attention to the power rails, etc) and additional equipment to check components. Plus, SS amps are rarely modifiable.

re: size - component selection is limited by power handling, and that's determined by materials and physical dimensions. i don't see analog amps going smaller than 0603 anywhere anytime soon. most use a mix of 0805 and TH.

re: parts - true, it is hard to find some parts, because they are either something really specific (e.g. certain audio ICs), or they just have certain combinations of specs that don't exist on the market anymore, or the type of device is EOL, etc. but you can find workarounds, if the unit is worth something to someone.

re: equipment - working on an analog SS amp is not really any different than working on pedals, analog synths, etc. doesn't require any special equipment, or anything more than community college equivalent knowledge. plenty of people do it at home.

the real issue with SS is that the vast majority of the time it's just not worth it for a customer to spend 200 dollars to fix an amp that's worth 500 or less. as a secondary thing, it's a pain in the ass for a guy who works on tube amps as far as time put in vs customer's expectation of repair cost.

but if an SS amp becomes like a roland tr-808 or juno, then yeah, it's worth everyone's time and money to fix. nobody really bats an eye at a 2-300 dollar repair job on a vintage synth. there are some SS amps that prized and climbing - offhand thinking like a sunn beta lead or something like that - but it's not the norm (and doesn't seem like it will ever be, given what's happening with modeling amps).

 

[naveed211]

How do the ToneMaster amps stack up against the Katanas and Fender Mustangs of this world in your opinion?

I’ve had a Mustang and I’ve played Katanas a bunch. To me, the ToneMaster is a big step up and sounds fantastic, but there are really good tones to be had in a Katana in particular, too. I won’t slag anything, but the ToneMaster killed my amp gas, truly.

 

[Brent Hutto]

I’ve had a Mustang and I’ve played Katanas a bunch. To me, the ToneMaster is a big step up and sounds fantastic, but there are really good tones to be had in a Katana in particular, too. I won’t slag anything, but the ToneMaster killed my amp gas, truly.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd think ToneMaster is kind of a super premium choice over the cheaper all-purpose modelers if the sound you're looking for in a Fender Twin/Deluxe/Princeton kind of sound. And it would be a waste of money if you're looking for something very different than classic Fender sounds.

 

[tfarny]

I am sort of puzzled why we demand that our guitar amplifiers be able to outlive us, yet we don't care at all about the repairability of literally any other electronics product. Imagine if we made the same demands of our cell phones!