My Church just informed me that they are going to In Ear Monitors SOON...

Discussion in 'Worship Service Players' started by GoldieLocks, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    Yep, My church just informed me that they are purchasing In Ear Monitors and going that direction...

    Looks like i'm packing up my amps and going home. I'll play Acoustic anytime they want. (hmmm? I need to buy more acoustic affects then. Time to go shopping!)

    Although, when my church decides something: there's often a 2 year gap before production sets in. This church is somewhat desperate to play ROARING CHRISTIAN MODERN PRAISE ROCK as quietly as possible for the 50% senor citizen crowd and young families with toddlers.
     
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  2. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

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    :lol::lol::lol:

    Well, you know if all the other hip churches are doing it...….
     
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  3. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    It's weird: I've been a very busy musician for 37 years... and seldom does anyone ever ask me my Biased-Expert opinion.
     
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  4. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

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    Over the past few years, I have noticed that the churches I have played in have really forgotten who actually makes the music. The musical direction (if you can call it that) has been driven by non musical pastors but mostly by the sound guys. They've complained about stage volume until IEM's were adopted and then they put all kinds of pressure on the guitar players to get amps off the stage.

    In our current church, the head pastor loves acoustic drums, and we have a wealthy congregant who donated a nice Steinway grand piano. The sound guys can't get either of those off the stage so we still have huge stage volume. The sound "engineers" still complain about electric guitars because it is the only thing they have had any success in being "in control" over.

    It's the only musical setting I've played in where the band doesn't control their sound and the sound people don't actually work for the band to help create and tailor the sound that the band is working for. In my experience, IEM's are a curse in the amateur volunteer church musician context. They are right up there with deafness for their contribution to musicians playing together in ensemble and for playing with dynamics and feel.

    When our worship pastor realized that he was going to lose both of his main electric guitar players if he demanded that all amps leave the stage, he realized that the sound guy couldn't play electric guitar from behind the desk and amps remained on the stage. If you tell them you go with your amp, maybe they will realize that a silent stage might be an empty stage. Who will the "engineer" mix then?

    Good luck, and sorry to hear that you are the latest victim in the IEM insanity.
     
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  5. hotraman

    hotraman Tele-Holic

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    My condolences @GoldieLocks... Been there, still doing it.
    I didn't want to lose my pedal board, so I added a NUX Solid Studio at the end of the chain. And I use a Palmer PD-09 for stereo.
    We use the Allen Heath PSM, and its not bad. We have "room" mics which help with the natural reverb that can be missing.
    I don't have expensive custom fit molds. Just Westone triple driver universal fits. And no amps on stage ( the grand pianos are ok??? )
    Good thing your church moves slowly.
    Not everyone is going to like the overall sound. Older folks maybe ( but I bet their TV's are louder at home)
    Young families .. they like a lot of low end..

    I hope you have time to get to rehearse with IEM's. Its different and takes time to adjust
     
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  6. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    yep. There's 2 of us, and we won't be compromising. (maybe later they'll have some of those toddlers buying Helix's or Kemper's to fill the void. But it'll be a generation or two.)

    Same scenario. Those aren't going away anytime soon. :lol:
    I still think i'm quieter than the Piano and Organ. Just more directional. even with my plexi-shield.
     
  7. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    I watch my sitcoms LOUDER than most of our drummers. EVERYBODY LOVES RAYMOND should be felt.:eek:
     
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  8. stratman54

    stratman54 Tele-Meister

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    I've been using IEMs for several years now. I've got my amp in a closet off stage into a miked iso cab with an Eminence Red White and Blues. I've got great tone in my ears. I've gone out front and compared my tone from the ears vs the out front. They are nearly identical because we have a sound engineer who is also a musician. He understands how choosy we can be about our tone.
    I think if you can be satisfied that the FOH sound is the same as your amp you might be less apprehensive.
    But if you want to take your ball and go home then so be it!
    If I were your worship leader I would remind you that the music is NOT about you. It IS about the LORD you are supposed to be serving.
    So serve and get over yourself!

    Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk
     
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  9. studio

    studio Poster Extraordinaire

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    Is that your phone ringing?

    [​IMG]
     
  10. studio

    studio Poster Extraordinaire

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    Amps off stage, IEMs are solutions looking for a problem.

    Stage volume is subjective. A grand piano can be played softly,
    it's even in the name of the instrument!

    The same goes for any percussion. It's all in the hands of the
    studied musician..... hopefully.

    Dynamic levels in the hands of inexperienced audio teams can be
    a runaway train, add the musicians who don't listen to others
    and it can get wild.

    Like you mentioned in another thread, IEMs is like throwing
    the baby and the tub out along with the bathwater!
    It's a downward spiral if all the components are not
    on the same page.

    Personally, I don't believe all sound guys want IEMs.
    It might also depend on the house acoustics.
     
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  11. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    I do recall saying,

    It has to do with the musicality of it all. I'm happy to play A guitar. One that suits the environment - my Martin acoustic. If somebody wants to HEAR A STACK OF MARSHALL AMPS IN CHURCH (or even one roaring Plexi) then I would really like to SEE that visually as well. The full experience - Not have the illusion of it. I'm pretty sure God doesn't have it as His highest priority either way.

    I've been to a few concerts lately where there's no amps on stage (or in the building far as I know). Brit Floyd was the latest. Fairly good sound for AxeFX units. Not great - but very good. But since the concert was over a 100 db's, they might as well have had REAL amps on stage... like Pink Floyd still does. It would have made up for the wimpy sounding drums.

    But when a church wants to be REAL quiet. But still have the impression of loud distorted guitar... I'm not impressed. But this is just personal taste as a player. Kind of like telling a horn player, "Play really really quiet and non-offensive ---- but make it sound like Miles Davis at Montreux." Miles would have some unkind flowery words for them.

    The other huge issue: Since my guitar is barely heard in the house anyway --- with no amp --- i'm pretty sure the soundguys will totally forget to turn it on - as has happened more than once. (and they seem to have a problem comprehending what all the gain dial does on the soundboard). We get enough feed-backing monitors already.
     
  12. stratman54

    stratman54 Tele-Meister

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    My main point is that IEMs allow for a better mix in your ears. You can still have the alternative of having an amp turned up enough for the tubes to work and have the speakers in an iso cab breathing. I understand not being able to trust the sound engineer. Most churches have volunteers with no experience to do a mix. Often times not paying attention, much less listening to the mix. IEMs doesn't mean quiet worship, we crank pretty loud. It does let a good sound engineer mix without the additional bleed and feedback caused by stage monitors. Give it a try, you might like it.
    If you close your mind to it you might miss the boat. Look at all of the pros. They use IEMs even with amps on stage. The only thing I really miss with having my amp isolated is the interaction you can get from controlled feedback by having an amp behind or next to you. Either way there is a trade off. Good luck!

    Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk
     
  13. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    I mostly agree:
    IEM's aren't the problem. I think our singers should use them (then they'd quit complaining about their bad monitor mixes... maybe if they learned to sing properly. But they're volunteers...) And I plan to use them If I play acoustic (with all my FX toys).

    But to me - An electric guitar and an amp are a improvisational "FEEL" tool that is connected. Like John Coltrane with his LOUD sax over thumping drums. My two favorite musicians refuse to use IEM's (Warren Haynes, Derek Trucks) basically for that reason.
    If your setlist is pretty solid without a lot of weaving then IEM's are probably a good choice. Although Blackberry Smoke uses them --- but they have a pretty solid set.

    I did a bunch of research: apparently there are numerous IEM's for different types of musicians --- Bassists, Singers, Guitarists. They favor different frequencies.
     
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  14. mRtINY

    mRtINY Tele-Afflicted

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    If I had to play IEM, I'd probably go wireless too. That way I could play from the mix position and check the ensemble too...

    Maybe just skip the IEMs and play guitar sitting in a pew with my family.

    I think ampless sanctuaries and IEMs are just the next thing after facial hair and flatbill caps. It's a desire to be "cool".....
     
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  15. mRtINY

    mRtINY Tele-Afflicted

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    You're onto something there... If the monitor mix is not good and the acoustics aren't dealt with (absorption on the walls that the monitors are firing at???), then IEMs are a nice tool. They probably make hockey arenas sound a lot better....

    You also touched on the big deficit in most congregations - a good engineer. Without one, IEMs are a disaster waiting to happen.
     
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  16. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

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    +1

    This has been our reality. Even after setting up a dedicated monitor desk with a separate sound guy, we still have to deal with them jacking around with input gain settings, or switching to different "scenes" on the digital board, mid service, which throws your entire monitor mix off. We've even had the monitor engineer mute various microphones and forget to un-mute them, don't ask me why. It has been a total nightmare.
     
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  17. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Holic

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    IEMs are a two-edged sword. After playing in front of wedges for two years, we went with IEMs all the way across. The singers love them and their harmonies are much better. The huge advantage is tailoring your own mix. With the wedges, it seemed the levels and mix were fluctuating all the time and you never knew when you would really be able to hear well. With IEMs, I'm able to dial up the WLs acoustic who's rhythm I cue off for the downbeat (or anything else I desire). I still have a Princeton on stage right behind me (a shallow stage) and I can leave one ear open if I want. I find that with the adjustable ambient mic on the mixing console and my vocal mic, I'm hearing my amp pretty well through the IEMs. Our stage/room levels are low enough that I have to rely on pedals for dirt anyway. Opening up even the Princeton enough to get the amount of breakup I need would blast everyone out.
     
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  18. mRtINY

    mRtINY Tele-Afflicted

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    Not all IEMs allow for each musician to set-up their own mix...

    Even with an Aviom-type system, if the feed levels change, you still have issues. Not to mention that you can dial up a mix where you can't even hear some instruments: That can be deadly in an ensemble.

    Glad it works for you. Seems like a lot of hassle and money for little gain in most church settings.
     
  19. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

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    Actually, this is the reason I said that IEM's are a curse in the volunteer, amateur church musician context, so it really is two edged sword. With pros, or at least seasoned musicians who realize that they need to be able to hear other people more than they need to hear themselves, IEMs can work great. With amateurs, not so much. In my experience, older piano players, especially ones that only read music, tend to turn off ( and I mean completely turn off in their ears) anything that competes with them in the sonic spectrum. So, they turn off the electric guitar, all of the vocals except for the lead, the bass, and the keyboard. They turn the drums or the click off, and usually it is the drums. The only thing they have in their ears is themselves, the lead vocal and the leaders guitar, then they blissfully play away to their own sound track. They aren't the only ones who turn themselves up and turn any instrument that gets in their space down or off. This is the real reason I quit using the IEM's at church, and demanded to have my amp on stage. I moved it over and pointed it right at the piano player so she could not avoid hearing other parts. When she insisted on moving the piano so she didn't have to hear my amp (and I'm not even kidding, she stopped practice because she couldn't "turn the guitar off in the monitor") I quit playing because she was always playing conflicting parts and playing over all the other instruments in the arrangements we were trying to perform. And the bigger problem is that she was only one of several musicians who were doing the exact same thing.
     
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  20. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Holic

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    The problems mentioned in posts 18 & 19 sound like issues with the musicians involved. If a musician doesn't come to the music with the goal of blending and communicating with the other instruments, no amount of, nor lack of tech can help that situation. The same rationale could be use for not giving each background singer their own mic, just make them all sing together around a multi-directional.

    I guess I'm way more fortunate than I realized. Our keys man also directs the choir in the trad service and is truly professional. He finds harmonies that no one else can and blends so seamlessly you can't pick out his voice. On keys, he goes out of his way to play around me so we're not in the same octave. I have 16 channels at my control in the A&H digital console we all have, but I don't have anyone dialed down seriously. Our singers do amazing 3 & 4 part harmonies at times on the chorus and do some a cappella that will send shivers down your spine. For us, the IEMs have been all about hearing each other better, not less (we are stretched wide on a shallow stage and the keys and I are at the far end, 20' from the WL and his acoustic). We also have no one at the soundboard during service. We hammer out the levels in rehearsal and the WL can adjust everything from a tablet mounted on his stand in an emergency. But we are a small group, and in a medium sized room with high ceilings so we're not talking about high sound pressure levels. When we're in the big sanctuary for holidays, it's another story. The sound there is big and there's a man on the soundboard.

    I am truly sorry that some of you are stuck with insensitive or egotistical members in the worship band- that's so unchristian, but unfortunately politics and egos touch churches just like everywhere else.

    To the OP, if IEMs in your band means no amp on stage, then make a change. Luckily, I still have my PRRI with me. We tried mic'ing it to get it in the mix but because I bounce it off the wall behind us and the room is not huge, it actually covers the room by itself and the band is hearing me fine. If IEMs at your church allows for you keeping an amp on stage, I would give them a try if you like the music the band is making. I'm only using entry level Sure SE 215s and they sound fine to me. The sub $100 ones are a waste. And I imagine the $500+ ones are quite nice.

    IHS -TP
     
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