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Musical Instruments to be Exempt From CITES

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by ojaverde, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    Dang, I have been hoarding pao ferro.
     
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  2. Chunkocaster

    Chunkocaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    They will probably both pay off in the long run when the Gov tax anything organic and Manufactures cut costs again and start supplying pvc necks.
     
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  3. Guitardvark

    Guitardvark Tele-Afflicted Platinum Supporter

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    elephant ivory
    ebony
    Brazilian rosewood
    my guitar was a pre Cites Kid :)

    I still dont know if it safe but thats okey cuz It aint going nowhere
     
  4. dreamingtele

    dreamingtele Friend of Leo's

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    Hmm, the Cites regulation is the only thing that stopped me from ordering more of these necks.. I guess nothings stopping me now..
     
  5. Chunkocaster

    Chunkocaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    Worst thing that could happen is the order gets turned around and you get refunded.

    About 5 years ago I bought a Robert Cray strat and it got declined on shipping due to a customs breach. No idea why, possibly the rosewood neck but it was used from a private seller. I just got refunded and the seller received his guitar back after a couple weeks.
     
  6. DougM

    DougM Poster Extraordinaire

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    Let's clear up something here. The new CITES regulations did not ban international sale or transfer of rosewood, only that proper permits be obtained. Fender, and other companies, could have kept making Asian and Mexican instruments using rosewood, as they have with American instruments, but they chose not to have to obtain the required paperwork involved, which would have increased their costs by having to have staff working on the logistics of obtaining those permits when their rosewood stock was entering and/or leaving each country in which they do business.
     
  7. dreamingtele

    dreamingtele Friend of Leo's

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    That is reassuring.. I know what to buy now when my tax return gets in.. I was planning to buy a cheap guitar to disassemble and mix parts again but only choosing necks locally available, new or used, but I guess this wont hurt to try..
     
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  8. Chunkocaster

    Chunkocaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    Their Allparts necks are shipped from Japan to the States so maybe the paperwork is already in order for them? I had no sign of problems or interference on the rosewood neck I bought from them a year ago. It just arrived as normal within a fortnight.

    I've bought 3 rosewood necks from them over the past few years.
    Latest one was a roasted flame maple a few months ago from a different seller..
    The exchange rate and extra 10% tax has really jacked the prices up now.
     
  9. dreamingtele

    dreamingtele Friend of Leo's

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    Im basically waiting for good Ebay coupons/discount codes before I buy anything there.. sometimes it gets cheaper than local stores and even online stores, from pedals, to watches, to whatever..

    Im mainly interested in all rosewood necks because of the specs and of course I like them rosewood.. Im not sure if that will be an issue or not, but like you said, it can be refunded if it gets turned around.. I'll try with one, and see how that goes.. Im dreaming of all my guitars having all rosewood necks from now on.. LOL
     
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  10. PhredE

    PhredE Tele-Afflicted

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    Relating to acoustic guitars..

    This is only tangentially related. But, I figured, what the heck, it is sort of related and even somewhat interesting.

    The Leonardo Guitar Research Project.
    http://www.leonardo-guitar-research.com/

    Basically, the theme of the project is to compare traditional tonewoods with non-traditional ones and test (using listener self-reported methods) to see if people can hear a difference. The test guitars are made from non-traditional woods for backs and sides -- but have traditional cedar and spruce for tops).

    Similarly, Newsprint: the new tonewood!


    I apologize to my detractors in advance.
     
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  11. radiocaster

    radiocaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    If you can get 40 layers of newspaper into a back an sides of a classical guitar, you might be able to make a solid body with 1000 layers. You'd need special equipment to make that though.
     
  12. Tonetele

    Tonetele Poster Extraordinaire

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    Not just guitars but orchestral instruments need quality bridges and fingerboards, not to forget maple and spruce. I bought my son a violin and it has Carpathian Spruce top and maple back and sides. When I last checked what was coming out of a certain country, they are using laminates. So I told him not to sell it as all solid wood type instruments would be too expensive, if not impossible.to buy in the future.
    That's good news. My Taylor is Rosewood b&s so I'm glad i got it a couple of years ago.
     
  13. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Yet the debates by woodwind players are more spirited and bile infused than guitar players tonewood debates, and the double blind tests are more controlled and rigorous.
    Sax players debate and buy into parts as distant from tone production as the thumb hook on the back of the instrument where you grip it. Essentially like believing the strap buttons of a guitar influence tone.

    There was a 1000 page thread started by a sax mouthpiece maker who cnc milled two identical tenor sax mouthpieces (the part the reed clamps to where the sound is made), one of traditional hard rubber, and one of traditional stainless steel.

    He then played the same licks with headphones and sunglasses on, so he couldn't tell what he was playing, and he put the double blind sound samples up on youtube where we all posted our guesses as to which licks were which mouthpiece.
    I managed to get 100% wrong, assuming that one sound was one material when it was actually the other material.

    Overall the results were entirely inconclusive.
    Some however concluded the test had proven that the materials don't matter!
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
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  14. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    WE all agree that a mahogany back & sides tends to sound different from a RW back & sides acoustic guitar.
    The question or the point though is:
    Can other similar woods that are not endangered produce close to the same sounds as RW back & sides?
    And can musicians, music critics, engineers, and fans tell the difference between a guitar with RW back & sides vs a guitar with one of the other tonewoods luthiers choose for that target tone we associate with RW?

    Findings there are inconclusive in terms of even a little bit of evidence that music and musicians will lose anything of musical value if we can no longer get endangered rosewood parts in our guitars.

    Luthiers were already proving this to us long before rosewood got protections.
    Pissed off some famous guitar players who were certain they could play any guitar and identify the wood species it was made from.

    In a way this has been offensive to the luthier artisans, suggesting that the wood defines the tone, and the luthier is thus just a factory worker at the assembly line.
    For that matter, why do cheap guitars with RW back & sides not sound great like expensive guitars with RW back & sides?
     
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  15. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Good points.

    And - we all know of those blindfold tests of Strads and Guarneri’s vs import and white wood fiddles. (Results are generally that folks often overpay by $3-$4,000,000 to get a “good sound” and that there are living luthiers just as good/better than legendary dead guys).

    I myself feel guilty when I pick up my craptastic $400 2011 Chinese Gretsch Corvette w/ an absolutely beautiful rosewood board and folks that really care about such things are struggling to accept the light, streaky pau ferro on their new $1200 MIA Tele...:oops::lol:
     
  16. tele_savales

    tele_savales Tele-Holic Platinum Supporter

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    If you've ever picked up a pair of rosewood claves and played them, you'll know instantly, on the first hit, that it isn't a "lie" that the wood has unbelievable and amazing tonal properties. The only remote substitute is the high-impact plastic garbage that Latin Percussion offers, and who knows what impact their manufacturing process has on the environment.
     
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  17. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Yeah I'm glad I'm no longer a new guitars consumer in an age when the boards are not pretty!

    As far as the blindfold tests comparing cheap whitewood fiddles to Strads etc, I consider the whole youtube tone testing thing to be a central flaw in the already flawed double blind test concept.
    Some years ago one of those tests proved that a J bass sounds the same as a P bass.
    I know some of the fiddle tests were done in person with no record/ playback influencing the audio, but I've played fiddle for many years and also done repair and worked for a short time for a violin maker, so I've handled, played and worked on some fine fiddles both old and new as well as some cheapo crap.

    AFAIK tests can be and often are skewed, and my experience is that fine fiddles sound a whole lot better than cheap ones.
    That is a basic fact, but what is wrong is the foolish idea that a collectors item sounds better because old Italy got all the masters.

    The whole debate in all types of instrument is IMO a mix of fact and fiction.

    Marketing will always use deception to sell product.
    But the current trend to insist that every cheapo music product is just as good as high end gear is as deceptive and inaccurate as claims that Fender has the best tonewood in their Teles, or that CNC has leveled the playing field thus a $200 electric is just as good as a $2000 electric.

    WRT limiting or stopping the cutting of rainforests somehow harming music and culture, which the OPs linked article showed the music industry claimed in lobbying for laxer laws; that is just plain wrong.

    Music, musicians and culture will be just fine without rainforest woods.
    Or without rosewood.
    Or with strict limits on rosewood harvest and use.

    World forest management is in the Ford Model T phase.
    It will improve with time and we will all be OK!

    Deforestation OTOH is something we or many of us might not survive.
    Entire ecosystems have already been wiped out along with cultures that depended on them.
    Mismanagement has killed lots of those other people in pursuit of profits, where poor countries have no protections for their environment, for their poor residents, or for their wildlife.

    The Brazilian Rainforest alone has seen massive continuous extinction events or process, more of plants than animals, but the pharmaceutical industry was for some time rushing to find potential medicinal compounds in rainforest plant species, before many or most became extinct.
    It's not just rosewood, wildlife and tribal cultures that are lost.
    Many of the patented prescription drugs that save the lives of Westerners are based on rainforest plant species.
    Aging boomers now face some scary prospects like alzheimers and COPD etc, plus we all face new diseases like the tick and mosquito borne killers.

    Clear cutting rainforests is far more ugly than pau ferro on a Fender.
     
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  18. beach bob

    beach bob Friend of Leo's

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  19. El Tele Lobo

    El Tele Lobo Poster Extraordinaire

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    Rockdom.
     
  20. tele_savales

    tele_savales Tele-Holic Platinum Supporter

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    Seriously?
     
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