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Music Theory Question

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Cloodie, Dec 19, 2020.

  1. brians356

    brians356 Tele-Meister

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    Sure it was, originally, but a big band I'm in plays it in C, and :eek: there's your dreaded D# chord (D#º). Doh!

    Merry Christmas to all, and to all a goodnight!
     
  2. DjimiWrey

    DjimiWrey Tele-Meister

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    lol, that is what i meant, thanks for correcting; and i was referring to notes vs chords
    seems my laziness applies to proof reading an editing as well
     
  3. Maguchi

    Maguchi Tele-Holic

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    When talking about scales, it's usually called a 2nd. You're right about chords. It's called a 9th because it's the next chord tone after the 7th. There's also a sus 2 chord (suspended 2nd), so calling it a 9th chord differentiates it from the sus 2 chord.
     
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  4. Maguchi

    Maguchi Tele-Holic

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    Great info! I'm happy to see that there are some theory guys who are guitar players on this post.

    What event or composition happened in May 1965 that caused sus chords not having to resolve? Or is that just an approximate date when unresolved sus chords became popular in music?
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  5. Maguchi

    Maguchi Tele-Holic

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    On guitar or piano, you can even place the 9th (or 2nd if you prefer) as the lowest note. The bass player could play the G root while the guitar or piano is playing an A as it's lowest note. Even in solo guitar or solo piano playing I see 9ths as the lowest note in the bass. Sometimes the 9th in the bass gives the bass line a smoother flow and better voice leading.
     
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  6. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    It's just my little musical joke.
    The song and album of the same name, "Maiden Voyage" by Herbie Hancock was released in the spring of '65. It's all sus chords that neither resolve nor are they the V of anything. They're just free standing suspended (or 11) chords.

     
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  7. Maguchi

    Maguchi Tele-Holic

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    Thanks, way cool! Of course I've heard of Herbie Hancock and heard his music, but not "Maiden Voyage" yet. Will have to listen to it.
     
  8. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    It's interesting, the thing about 'resolution'. Of course in a strict harmonic functional sense there is no resolution by definition but there is a kind of resolution when I listen. The melody creates or implies a kind of resolution as does the rhythm and dynamics. I find that interesting. I mean, we speak of resolution as a technical matter...this note moves here and that note moves there, like a chess game. But resolution is fundamentally an emotional response and I can feel resolution happening in those changes. Of course it's a subtler kind of feeling than what we typically mean by resolution...but it's there non the less.

    EDIT: And it also occurs to me that repetition helps create feelings of resolution. When you've heard the changes repeated enough times so that you can predict 'the future', you experience resolution because you know where things are going. In fact because of the nervous system's enjoyment of predictability I might suggest that you can feel a sense of resolution even in very unsettled harmonic changes simply from knowing what's coming next.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  9. ndcaster

    ndcaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    yes

    one counterpoint mentor told me that I could restrict my dissonances to a finite set, and that this would help to unify things more so that resolution could be felt as such

    otherwise, you get so many dissonances of so many kinds that you lose a sense of coherence

    it was good to think about, this idea that you don't have to deploy every tension but can work with a kind of chosen palette of tensions

    "ah, a ninth!" he said, "why? you haven't used a ninth before"

    I had no good answer for him

    another said, "early on in this motet we are in the eighteenth century, but by the end we are in Puccini!"

    lol

    not qualitatively, of course! but in the range of dissonances used

    I find this useful to think about
     
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  10. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Yes! to all of that.
    Studying harmony as long as I have and being an improviser from day one, to me EVERYTHING is tension and resolution. Some type of V to I. I've broken every tune I know down to it's simplest base structure. They're all just an extrapolation or diminution of blues, rhythm changes or modal. Jumbled up, chopped up, re-aligned and mis-aligned but that's all there is. Improvisation is easy and a joy for me because ultimately I don't see it as a lot of stuff - just tension and resolution.

    Am I over simplifying? Absolutely. It took me a long time and a ton of study and work to get to the point where it is simple. I want it to get even simpler. So I still study and work.
     
  11. Kristof

    Kristof TDPRI Member

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    The 9th chord is made of stacked 3rds that, in theory extends beyond the octave (8th), so the 9th conveys that the note this is an octave higher as it would appear in the general order of the stacked notes in a 9th chord. However, you can place the "9th" anywhere in the stack. So, the 2nd is only called the 9th when it is part of a chord structure. As a part of the scale, the same note is called the 2nd.
     
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  12. SnidelyWhiplash

    SnidelyWhiplash Friend of Leo's

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    The way my guitar teacher explained it to me was that the 9th, 11th & 13th were just dom7 chords with an upper extension in the melody. ( in terms of the guitar, the added note falls on the highest treble string ) You just subtract the 7th from the chord name. 9 - 7 = 2, etc. :cool:
     
  13. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    They don't have to be 'dominant' i.e., containing a b7.
    You can have major 9th and major 13th. For example: C B E A is a Cmaj13 (8 X 9 9 10 X) which, when inverted A C E B (X X 7 5 5 7) is an Am9. :cool:.
     
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  14. SnidelyWhiplash

    SnidelyWhiplash Friend of Leo's

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    I meant in a dominant situation. Should have stated that more clearer.
     
  15. Cloodie

    Cloodie Tele-Meister

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    Didn't know what I was starting when I wrote the OP :D
     
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  16. JamesAM

    JamesAM Tele-Meister

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    Lol you sure got your money’s worth my friend
     
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  17. P Thought

    P Thought Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Probably something to do with New Year's reflections, but I am struck by the fact that while much of this thread is still murky to me, I understand a lot more of it than I would have a few years ago.

    I owe my eternal gratitude to those of you who have been my teachers all this time. I know there's much more to learn, but I'm beginning to feel like a bit of a musician. Thanks, and Happy New Year!
     
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  18. fretWalkr

    fretWalkr Tele-Meister

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    This one may be approaching thread-death, but I saw this and remembered that there are some exceptions with enharmonic spelling. I learned this in an elective class on music copying at Berklee. This class was when copying parts from scores was done by hand.

    This is an excellent point. When there is a clear ascending bass line like,
    G G#dim Am7 A#dim G/B
    then you want to make that obvious to the player. The bass line G G# A A# B makes more sense in the context of the song (and you'll likely get a better performance) by using the A#.

    This is a major exception to the "rule" or notation convention that you would prefer to call it Bb instead of A#. Now this doesn't really matter much if you're writing chord chards for guitarists but it becomes important when you have a group of horn or string players reading standard notation.

    When you're writing a score you would always write in the key of Bb rather than A#. The simple reason is Bb has 2 flats and A# has 4 sharps and 3 double sharps. Give the horn section a chart in A# and you will get much laughter, hoots, and catcalls.
     
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  19. aadvark

    aadvark Tele-Meister

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    "The 9th implies the presence of a 7th."

    "a dominant 7th"

    Yes, that was my point... "the 9th" may be referring to the ninth note of the scale or chord, in which case, if it was supported by a major 7th note.... and a major 3rd, would make a major 9th chord.

    You clearly meant "9th, as in 9th chord", which you rightly state is a dominant 9th chord including the dominant 7th note. (ie m7 note).

    Anyway, we are clearly on the same page here. The confusion lies in 9th note vs. 9th chord.

    As for the 2nd vs. 9th thing, it's been pretty well covered here. I think classical, jazz & rock, etc theoreticians can agree on the modern nomenclature. Much of chord labelling is understanding the structural function of the harmony. But an abstract bunch of notes can usually be given a name - if that's important to you.

    For the record, you can name a dominant 9th chord more abstractly as follows, where a 1/2 step=1:

    [0,4,7,10,14]... or
    more compact:
    0,2,4,7,10... or
    more compact again:
    [0,2,4,6,9]

    interestingly the chord has a 4 note segment of the whole tone scale embedded in it.

    <0,3,2,2,2,1> the 'interval vector'* shows the tally of the 6 interval types in the chord...

    a big part of the charateristic sound of the chord features: 0 semitones, 3 whole tones, etc.

    it's a nice rich chord with a pretty even distribution of interval types.

    It's also symmetrical through inversion at I6.

    *you can find all this in Allen Forte's table.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch-class_sets

    as for the major 9th chord, that's another chord!

    (forgive me if someone has already discussed the Set Theoretical approach!)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  20. aadvark

    aadvark Tele-Meister

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    but then Ted is from another planet (and brilliant). :)
     
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