Moving recording spaces from downstairs to upstairs with trepidation.......

[FortyEight]

I'm not sure if there is a question here but, I'm kind of curious if anybody has any feedback that could be helpful. At some point in 2021 I started cleaning and organizing our neglected basement (still need to keep at that) to get rid of junk and also make a spot for recording. i love that room. But, in Racine Wisconsin we have this gas in the ground called radon. which i guess is basically like radiation. or something. and when we moved in 15 years ago or whatever (yeah it was 15), we knew we had it from testing. at levels that arent ideal. So we had a mitigation system put in, which is basically an air pump that pumps the air out of underneath the concrete basement slab. Well that motor went out about a year ago and i gotta get it fixed. among other things around the house.

ANYWAYS. That was just explaining of part of my motivation to move things. It's not the only reason. I like the basement cuz its like a space i have total control over. a man cave type thing. my wife never goes in there. and no one can make a mess or clean but me. However, it is a bit like, i spend a lot of time mixing in there and u kinda get like gollum or something. like, wheres the sun? u emerge and your eyes are like oh no the sun!!!! anyways......

I moved part of my drum kit up today to hear how it sounds. i love the feel of playing the kit in the sun but OH MY GOODNESS it sounds different. I mean i knew it would. and when i started recording in 2020 I did start upstairs. But Ive been using a desktop parked downstairs for a while after my laptop was choking from recording. I feel like I've learned a bunch about sounds down there and now I might have to relearn what works up here. especially for drums. but the flipside is that i like getting different sounds and it will be interesting.

Maybe I will do a song or two and be like , no way. I will just take my chances with radon and continue to miss the sun. or maybe i will be pleased. but playing the kit in here, wow. its like culture shock. the ceilings are higher. but theres less stuff on the walls. but then there are two couches up here. I feel like its a warmer but fuller sound upstairs. but brighter and maybe a bit thinner downstairs. Im sort of like yowza, im not sure how this is gonna go. i have enough headphone chord that i can record in my living room, my little dining room that will be basically the control room and my kitchen. the sound is more dead in my basement when i say "check" real loud or clap. but the living room is almost as dead. im assuming cuz the ceilings are so much higher. the control room is a bit more reverberant than living room and the kitchen is as much as a bathroom. Meaning much more reverb of course. but sometimes when im practicing guitar and singing in the kitchen, i love how it sounds.

So that's my story for today......... If u got any advice or tips. ranging from "good luck youre gonna need it" to "oooo this could be good" or any tech tips, im all ears.

Pics of the basement room then the upstairs....

 

[chulaivet1966]

Howdy....

My avatar pic is current and I'm down in a comfortable basement area which has (3) separate areas.
I'm in one of them.

Many older homes here in the Heartland have the same design because were in tornado turf..
I much prefer it down in the Wolf's Den rather than an upstairs choice....no room upstairs anyway.
Basement is the same size as the house above and perfect for my preferences.
Volume desire is a non issue with this location so I'd bother no one upstairs

Notice there is ambient light on the walls.
I have (3) windows (12" high X 24" wide) on the east/south/west walls so I'm never in a tomb, so to speak.
I have a good rug on the concrete floor and I don't like recording in a live room....I've always preferred a dead one.
I presume you have no windows in the basement?

Good luck with the changes.

Carry on....

 

[Blrfl]

So we had a mitigation system put in, which is basically an air pump that pumps the air out of underneath the concrete basement slab. Well that motor went out about a year ago and i gotta get it fixed. among other things around the house.
...
If u got any advice or tips.

Just one, not to sound naggy: Put getting that motor fixed at the top of your list. Radon is the largest cause of lung cancer in non-smokers. Cancer sucks.

 

[FortyEight]

Yeah, i feel ya. Thanks for the kick in the pants. I gotta see if the dudes that put it in are still in business cuz last i recall, they werent. need to find someone though. at least an electric motor doesnt have a chip in it. at least i think it doesnt.

 

[Joebanjocolo]

Dude,
You need to get that Radon Mitigation system up and running. Upstairs or
downstairs you are being exposed. Cancer is a real drag, trust me. I am sorry to be nagging but its easy to replace the motor and it could save your life.

 

[FortyEight]

Howdy....

My avatar pic is current and I'm down in a comfortable basement area which has (3) separate areas.
I'm in one of them.

Many older homes here in the Heartland have the same design because were in tornado turf..
I much prefer it down in the Wolf's Den rather than an upstairs choice....no room upstairs anyway.
Basement is the same size as the house above and perfect for my preferences.
Volume desire is a non issue with this location so I'd bother no one upstairs

Notice there is ambient light on the walls.
I have (3) windows (12" high X 24" wide) on the east/south/west walls so I'm never in a tomb, so to speak.
I have a good rug on the concrete floor and I don't like recording in a live room....I've always preferred a dead one.
I presume you have no windows in the basement?

Good luck with the changes.

Thanks. Yeah there's no windows in the spot i have. it is kind of a bummer. but yeah i like not worrying about whats going on in the house. but im an empty nester and have a lot of opportunities with no one in the house while i am. i dont think the schedule will be an issue. if it is i can arrange it back. but maybe i will rearrange to the next room over with a window in the basemebt. i didnt really think about that. only thing is the sump pump is on that side. its in its own walled out corner but when it goes off it makes lots of noise. hmmmmmm. there might be another spot.

i do like the feel and possibly sound of the living room though. playing drums in there felt really nice. theres something about having the light and yard closer and in regular view.

 

[chulaivet1966]

i do like the feel and possibly sound of the living room though. playing drums in there felt really nice. theres something about having the light and yard closer and in regular view.

Agreed....
Playing in a basement tomb environment could get old.
Far more ideal to have the option of some Vitamin D shining through from somewhere whether from a window or open door.

Keep us informed....carry on.

 

[Milspec]

Here is where I go on a rant about radon. I will preface it by telling you that I was a licensed Radon contractor for 2 years before coming to the conclusion that it was pretty much a scam.

Here is the deal and I will try to keep it short. Radon gas is not harmful...period. It is the by-product of that radon gas as it decays which "might be" harmful. There is zero proof that the decay by-products actually cause harm. Why do they claim it? Well, the only industry that measured radon gas over a period of time is the mining industry which records all gas exposures in the work place. That industry noted that there was a higher incidence of lung and stomach cancers in those employees who worked in areas with higher radon levels. Is it really the cause or coincidence? Do the guys who work in that area smoke more? What are the diets like? What is their family histories?

The point being that nobody actually knows if the decayed radon gas is actually the cause. It's final product is a lead, so maybe it poses a threat, but there are zero studies to prove the link (at least when I was licensed about 6 years ago).

As a contractor, the people who hired us the most were real estate agents who would then tell us what result they wanted in testing. It is leverage for a buyer if the levels are high.

Much of the inspectors were using basic testing methods. Either charcoal canisters or Sun Nuclear testers were the most common tools. With both devices, an inspector could make adjustments to push the results to either read high or low depending on the goal by simply opening a window or testing on a rainy day.

I adopted the Aircat testing modules which were top of the line at that time. It had a lot of built in sensors that would void any test when it detected sudden changes in the environment (pressures, movement, etc.). It then sent the results to a licensed lab which would provide the test results. The inspector had zero ability to nudge the results. Sounds good right? Nope, when I told the real estate agents which device I used, they wanted no part of my services. They wanted a guy who would give them the results that they wanted.

The other crazy part is that mitigation systems are very basic, just a fan depressurizing the foundation. You house actually draws in the radon gas, it does not get pushed into your home. A 2 story home will have a stronger suction, so they will have higher levels if the gas is present in that area. So, that fan provides a simple pathway for the gas to travel out the pvc piping instead of being pulled into the home. Yet, despite it being such a simple installation, federal law doesn't allow the homeowner to purchase the damn fan...it has to be a licensed radon mitigator. Why? How stupid is that?

My advice to the OP is to not worry about the damn Radon level in the basement. If the number was sky high or something, maybe it would give me pause, but if it is borderline (5-7) I wouldn't loose any sleep at all.

 

[howardlo]

I just know that I wouldn’t want all that gear taking up my living room and dining room.

 

[mexicanyella]

I just know that I wouldn’t want all that gear taking up my living room and dining room.

You talk as though you don’t have any bass or guitar cabs as end tables or coffee tables in your house, and that can’t be right.

Put a doily and a little table lamp on that stuff and it blends right in.

 

[Blrfl]

Full disclosure: I spent a couple of summers working for chemical engineers who specialized in toxic waste cleanup and had to pass a short course on radiation and radiation exposure to get badged up at a facility where radioactive materials where present. I might also have slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Here is the deal and I will try to keep it short. Radon gas is not harmful...period. It is the by-product of that radon gas as it decays which "might be" harmful. ... There is zero proof that the decay by-products actually cause harm. Why do they claim it? ... The point being that nobody actually knows if the decayed radon gas is actually the cause.

You may want to re-visit high school chemistry, because that's misleading and wrong.

Radon is part of the decay chain of uranium, which is pretty abundant in the Earth's crust. Here's a piece of that:

Every arrow is decay and the times at the bottom of each octagon are how long it takes for half the atoms in a sample to decay into the next element. The α and β symbols on the chart indicate an alpha or beta particle being pooped out as part of the decay process. When you inhale that stuff and atom decays in your lungs, the nearby tissue gets a front-row seat. Alpha and beta particles are ionizing radiation, which is one of the things that can damage DNA. Chronic DNA damage is what leads to cancer.

The polonium doesn't last long, but it's one of the most-toxic substances on the planet. The 210 isotope is famous for having been used in assassinations, but the others are no picnic, either. Nothing else in the chain is on my must-have-for-breakfast list. The least-toxic product is bismuth, and even that's known to have bad side effects over the long term.

If radon doesn't cause lung cancer, cigarette smoke doesn't, either. Never mind that lead 210 and polonium 210 (sound familiar?) occur naturally in soil and tobacco and sticky goop in the smoke helps prevent them from being exhaled, which means they decay in-place, right next to the aforementioned lung tissue.

It's final product is a lead, so maybe it poses a threat, but there are zero studies to prove the link (at least when I was licensed about 6 years ago).

The NIH and EPA have been studying this stuff in residential settings since the 1980s. Two studies almost 20 years ago confirmed the link in residential settings that mine exposure hinted at decades before that.

As a contractor, the people who hired us the most were real estate agents who would then tell us what result they wanted in testing. It is leverage for a buyer if the levels are high.

Respectfully, the scammy end of this is people wanting to rig the results. Radioactive elements and their radioactive decay products gonna radiate and Mother Nature don't give a crap if it was measured wrong.

...federal law doesn't allow the homeowner to purchase the damn fan...it has to be a licensed radon mitigator.

That sounds like one of those stories people with something to sell tell potential customers to persuade them to buy, like mechanics who claim they can't legally release a car with an unrepaired safety problem. If there's actual law or regulation that says this, I'd love to see it. Tell Home Depot and Lowes about it, too, because they seem to have a bunch of them ready for shipment directly to my door.

 

[Ben Harmless]

I just learned a lot about radon, so that was kinda cool and unexpected.

With regard to your change in environment, your description of the upstairs as "warmer but fuller" sounds great to me. Obviously there's such a thing as too warm, but in your situation I'd recommend considering whether the brightness of the basement was actually an asset. For me, I know I rarely keep the highest highs in the room sounds. I just think that given the choice, I'd go with the larger room - at least on the scale that we're talking about. One of the other benefits is that with multiple other rooms upstairs, you can put mics down hallways and stuff to pick up more "house sound" which could be cool - or not, depending on taste. A number of cool artists (Neil Young comes to mind) have leveraged the acoustics of houses in their processes.

Oh, and blackout curtains are great if mixing in the dark is an important part of your creative process.

And lastly, all I can think of now is:

 

[FortyEight]

Yeah maybe I shoulda left out the part about the radon. I could personally go either way on that. Which is why i didnt care about enough to be down there for a year, but figure a break from it could be good. there may be wisdom on either side of the argument and we plan to get it fixed. money is a finite resource so it got pushed back some. FWIW, we had testing AFTER we were in the house for a year so the findings were not massaged by a realtor. and the company we hired to put in the mitigation system was not associated with the tester: THAT WE KNOW OF. I dont claim to be wise enough to see through every scam and know they exist. but the flipside is that there may be some truth in it being harmful. who knows. we do our best.

Now @Ben Harmless thank you for the feedback on the main part of the story. Last week i read somewhere (of course it must be true it was on the internet) that Glyn Johns' brother was the engineer on "when the levee breaks" and this article claimed he put a mic in a stairwell adjacent to whatever room it was in. which i think the article was claiming it was a large living room in some estate.

so yeah, the halls or extra areas could be an experiment to distant mic.

i believe i will have enough room for my gear. that smaller dining room is gonna be my control room and nobody goes in there. my daughters room is likely gonna hold my kit set up awaiting to be moved to the living room to track, and if i run out of room for amps they can go in there. i already have my biggest and best bass amp in the living room for gigs. so i only need to add my smallish guitar amp. i got desk drawers and shelves in that control room for mics and chords. should be good to go. still working on organizing it. my biggest question is the sound. will it be a challenge, be better or just different? make it more difficult to figure mixes. idk. but im looking forward to finding out. but also thinking, maybe this is dumb. cuz the two songs i just finished tracking last week are shaping up to be some of the best sounding mixes so far, possibly but ive tried new compressors and a bit of reverb technique. and i might just be understanding more now. but part of the understanding might be how understood my room. lol.

 

[bottlenecker]

I'm looking at potentially having to move to the basement from my upstairs studio if we can't find a bigger house. I don't want to. I have a nice view of a traffic light a couple blocks away, and I think I work better when I can see it. Sun and plants are nice too.

 

[mexicanyella]

Basically, I record in a shed.

 

[Milspec]

Full disclosure: I spent a couple of summers working for chemical engineers who specialized in toxic waste cleanup and had to pass a short course on radiation and radiation exposure to get badged up at a facility where radioactive materials where present. I might also have slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.



You may want to re-visit high school chemistry, because that's misleading and wrong.

Radon is part of the decay chain of uranium, which is pretty abundant in the Earth's crust. Here's a piece of that:

View attachment 1071196

Every arrow is decay and the times at the bottom of each octagon are how long it takes for half the atoms in a sample to decay into the next element. The α and β symbols on the chart indicate an alpha or beta particle being pooped out as part of the decay process. When you inhale that stuff and atom decays in your lungs, the nearby tissue gets a front-row seat. Alpha and beta particles are ionizing radiation, which is one of the things that can damage DNA. Chronic DNA damage is what leads to cancer.

The polonium doesn't last long, but it's one of the most-toxic substances on the planet. The 210 isotope is famous for having been used in assassinations, but the others are no picnic, either. Nothing else in the chain is on my must-have-for-breakfast list. The least-toxic product is bismuth, and even that's known to have bad side effects over the long term.

If radon doesn't cause lung cancer, cigarette smoke doesn't, either. Never mind that lead 210 and polonium 210 (sound familiar?) occur naturally in soil and tobacco and sticky goop in the smoke helps prevent them from being exhaled, which means they decay in-place, right next to the aforementioned lung tissue.



The NIH and EPA have been studying this stuff in residential settings since the 1980s. Two studies almost 20 years ago confirmed the link in residential settings that mine exposure hinted at decades before that.



Respectfully, the scammy end of this is people wanting to rig the results. Radioactive elements and their radioactive decay products gonna radiate and Mother Nature don't give a crap if it was measured wrong.



That sounds like one of those stories people with something to sell tell potential customers to persuade them to buy, like mechanics who claim they can't legally release a car with an unrepaired safety problem. If there's actual law or regulation that says this, I'd love to see it. Tell Home Depot and Lowes about it, too, because they seem to have a bunch of them ready for shipment directly to my door.

Quote those studies that show the direct link, because it was the NIH that provided the training for licensing and it was them that admitted that the link was only suspected, but not a direct link. I went through that program far more recent than 20 years.

I might add that I never misled anyone, I stated (correctly) that the final decay result was lead. We have studies showing potential hazards to lead (especially to children) ingestion, but not to the presence of a lead in a gas form.

I have no desire to debate if there is a valid risk or not, it was not proven by any valid studies that I ever saw at the time and I absolutely can confirm that the real world operation was full of fraud. There are countless companies out there conducting both the test samples and the mitigations, which was never supposed to be allowed. They will test, tell the homeowner that it was high, install the fan, re-test and confirm that they solved the problem. Might as well guess a number between 1-100 and see if you get it right, because the homeowner has no way of knowing if they are being lied to....what I witnessed, they normally were.

 

[Milspec]

If anyone is really bored and wants to do a deeper dive regarding radon risk....

Residential Radon Appears to Prevent Lung Cancer

Residential radon has been found to be associated with lung cancer in epidemiological/ecological studies and the researchers have inappropriately concluded that residential radon causes lung cancer. Their conclusion relates to the linear-no-threshold ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Blrfl]

I don't want to get into a raging debate, either, but i will drop two final points:

The mechanism I described is how radiation-induced cancer happens with every other radioactive element. Maybe there's some magic that makes radon not behave like all of those elements, but I'd like to see the physics behind it.

I've known people who've had cancer and survived it and others who didn't. The price tag to install a radon remediation system is a drop in the bucket compared to the value of what having cancer took out of their lives. If I have reason to think there's too much of a radioactive substance in my house, it's outta there.

 

[matman14]

I'm in the middle of moving my studio from Los Angeles, CA to Buckinghamshire, UK.

Nothing to do with Radon in my case.

The big deal (aside from getting studio construction finished on schedule) will be having to learn where all the new sweet spots are In the room for mic/amp/singer/drum placement.

Exciting times!

 

[Ben Harmless]

I have a nice view of a traffic light a couple blocks away, and I think I work better when I can see it. Sun and plants are nice too.

That's one of the more unique muses I've come across, but I support it. I recommend either getting yourself a webcam to focus on the light, or actually getting a surplus stoplight (or novelty equivalent) to put in the basement with you. I don't know if you've named your practice, but I recommend "Stoplight Studios."

Also, I remembered this. I wish all of our homes could be this cool:


And then the accompanying film with more of the house in it:


I would kill to stand in that space and just listen to it. I love spaces.