Modern Cloth Covered Wire Help

[Clb8484]

I needed some new hookup wire and thought it would be cool to have vintage looking cloth covered wire. I found wire that has modern pvc insulation between the wire and the cloth that is rated for 600 volts (basically the cloth is just for looks):

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/wire-20-awg-solid-core-lacquered-cloth-cover-600v

Its a bit of a pain to work with and I'm not sure that I'm happy with my decision, but my question is, do I need to do anything to prevent the ends of the cloth from fraying? Is there a fire danger if frayed ends come into contact with high voltage?

 

[Boreas]

Only an issue when soldering as it can char and dirty up your soldering tip. If you don't like the fraying you can "burn" it back with a lighter, shmear it with yellow glue, dab it with CA, or use shrink tubing. You could also contact the seller for info.

But some wire frays more than others. I bought some with a woven "plastic" fabric that is essentially useless. Frays like a trick cigar if you don't melt it. The lacquered wire (like yours) I have used is not as bad. I bought the plastic crap because it came in more colors. Luckily I only bought a few feet of it.

My advice is to keep the wire. You should be able to pull the fabric off easily for other jobs. BUT, for wiring an amp, I would buy the traditional wire that has no plastic insulation because it is so easy to use. Basically cut it to length, poosh back the cloth, solder, then slide the fabric down to the solder joint. I would expect non-lacquered cotton to be less flammable than your lacquered version.

And obviously, make sure you get the proper gauge of wire for the circuit you are wiring.

 

[Peegoo]

Modern pushback wire is too much of a pain to work with. The only time I use it is when I'm doing a repair in a vintage guitar. It was used in amps in the old days because it was cheap.

Remember when the electrical circuits in homes were run with cloth-covered wire? Not many folks do, and there's a reason why it was changed.

 

[King Fan]

My smart friends, you're using logic and objectivity. No fair!

Flip side of the coin is that high-quality, solid cloth-covered wire is the easiest to shape and holds shape best of all the wire I've ever used. (When the coin lands on its edge, there may be some advantage to the cloth-over-plastic stuff, but it has a bad rep for ease of use, combining the downsides of both types).

Does cloth insulation ever fail? Well, I wouldn't twist it *way too* hard with a power drill -- the cloth can 'burst'. Other than that, unless you run your amp underwater, not so much.

The fray *is* a hassle (tho not a fire hazard), and simply pushing the cloth back is fine on long runs, but forms a fat 'caterpillar' on shorter ones. A drop of CA, or clear nail polish, *before* stripping is usually fine; I use my best strippers and a nail scissor for any stray inner threads.

There's no single 'right' answer; we see great amps (and pro amps) built with cloth, PVC (especially over 'topcoat' wire), and Teflon. But for every 'good' wire type out there, there are several 'bad' types: Hardware store solid *or* stranded. Kinky plastic that won't take or hold shape. Wire that's way too fat. Etc.

For fun, as a wire shootout, I built my 5G9 with Weico topcoat at one end and Fender-style cloth at the other. Both were great.

 

[schmee]

I needed some new hookup wire and thought it would be cool to have vintage looking cloth covered wire. I found wire that has modern pvc insulation between the wire and the cloth that is rated for 600 volts (basically the cloth is just for looks):

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/wire-20-awg-solid-core-lacquered-cloth-cover-600v

Its a bit of a pain to work with and I'm not sure that I'm happy with my decision, but my question is, do I need to do anything to prevent the ends of the cloth from fraying? Is there a fire danger if frayed ends come into contact with high voltage?

It's terrible wire they sell there. Frays terribly. I have some here from years ago I simply will not use.
Buy waxed cloth push back wire from Marsh Amps. It pushes back easily, no liner, very minimal fraying like the original and works great. You'll be glad you did. They sell by the foot or spool. It's old school waxed wire.

Marsh is just a small mom and pop place and very responsive.

 

[Bill Moore]

I've used that wire for several builds, and the only problem I had was with stripping the insulation. An adjustable cutter solved that problem!

 

[King Fan]

Good info, @Bill Moore. I haven't actually used that wire, and probably shouldn't have generalized from a couple of complaints I read over the years. The right tools are often the answer.

 

[sds1]

Oof that wire blows, way too bulky and a pain to strip.

IMO

 

[sds1]

It's terrible wire they sell there.

Agreed. This used to be their only cloth wire. I have a few spools still, I will never use it again. But in more recent years they started carrying normal cloth pushback over topcoat stranded wire :

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/wire-gavitt-cloth-22awg-stranded-top-coat-pre-tinned

 

[Clb8484]

Agreed. This used to be their only cloth wire. I have a few spools still, I will never use it again. But in more recent years they started carrying normal cloth pushback over topcoat stranded wire :

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/wire-gavitt-cloth-22awg-stranded-top-coat-pre-tinned

Interesting. Personally, I prefer working with solid core, so I don't think I would like that a ton either. Probably a good option though for someone who wants stranded core!

 

[Clb8484]

I ended up just putting a little piece of shrink tubing over the ends of the wires and that works pretty well. Adds an extra step, but doesn't take a ton of time or effort in the long run.

 

[dsutton24]

...Does cloth insulation ever fail?

Yes, it gets brittle over time.

 

[dsutton24]

I needed some new hookup wire and thought it would be cool to have vintage looking cloth covered wire. I found wire that has modern pvc insulation between the wire and the cloth that is rated for 600 volts (basically the cloth is just for looks):

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/wire-20-awg-solid-core-lacquered-cloth-cover-600v

Its a bit of a pain to work with and I'm not sure that I'm happy with my decision, but my question is, do I need to do anything to prevent the ends of the cloth from fraying? Is there a fire danger if frayed ends come into contact with high voltage?

You can wrap the end of the wire with a layer of masking tape, then cut through the insulation and tape with a sharp razor blade. I've also sealed the cut ends of the insulation with Crazy Glue, but that can be tedious and messy. White glue would probably work just as well.

The fraying is just a cosmetic issue. The only time I use cloth wire is if I need to match something that was already there. There's no advantage to the stuff, it's fussy to work with, and it's expensive. And, as my esteemed self mentioned above, cloth insulation fails over time, particularly in the presence of heat. Not a big deal in a guitar, but potentially destructive in an amp.

 

[Boreas]

I ended up just putting a little piece of shrink tubing over the ends of the wires and that works pretty well. Adds an extra step, but doesn't take a ton of time or effort in the long run.

And it looks very professional!

 

[Wildeman]

Modern pushback wire is too much of a pain to work with. The only time I use it is when I'm doing a repair in a vintage guitar. It was used in amps in the old days because it was cheap.

Remember when the electrical circuits in homes were run with cloth-covered wire? Not many folks do, and there's a reason why it was changed.

Gotta get that old good stuff

 

[King Fan]

Interesting. Personally, I prefer working with solid core, so I don't think I would like that a ton either. Probably a good option though for someone who wants stranded core!

Like you, I enjoy working with solid core. But don't confuse topcoat, which strips and handles like solid core...

with plain stranded... (and this is the 'better' sort).

Or, much worse, the evil 'Medusa' sort...

 

[sds1]

Interesting. Personally, I prefer working with solid core, so I don't think I would like that a ton either. Probably a good option though for someone who wants stranded core!

It's stranded topcoat, so no tinning is needed and it stays put somewhat when you bend it. Try it, you might like it.

 

[sds1]

Jinx @King Fan

 

[Peegoo]

Or, much worse, the evil 'Medusa' sort...

Yep.

That cheap stranded stuff can create ratty connections and shorts due to the "George Michael" (careless whisker) effect.

 

[King Fan]

Would it be gratuitous to say the 'Medusa' picture is the wire on a major-maker transformer? One of many things I miss about ClassicTone was their nice topcoat-style wire...

To be fair, last I checked, Heyboer / Mojo also uses nice wire.