Modelling / effects pedal boards? Are they really a replacement for a good amp?

[Craig Williams]

Been through a few of these units....from Nux MG-30, MG-300, Pod Go and now a Mooer MG-150. Admittedly none of these the top of the tree but should be in the ballpark for decent sound. My two amps are a Fender Superchamp Xd and a Roland JC-60, both really nice sounding traditional amps. I can see the attraction of these new modellers re home recording, headphones or perhaps someone doing 2 or 3 gigs a night they can simply put there modelling board under their arm and run to the next gig and plug into the house PA...

My guitar playing and influences / sounds mainly from the 80's when we used valve amps with usually Boss stomp boxes. You had the beautiful sound already from your Twin, Deluxe etc and improved on it with the pedals (delay, chorus, OD etc) but retained the inherent sound of your amp. The pedals didn't color anything too much.

I have really tried to like these new modelling effects units but they just don't seemed to be designed to use in the old fashioned way aka effects pedals plugged into the front of a combo. I know you can turn the amps and cabs off but even with EVERYTHING turned off they seem to color or mess up the sound of your amp...its not like you are starting with a true bypass and can just add different stuff. The output sound usually to me sounds thin and unnatural....hifi even which using a shrill single coil, maple neck Strat is not what you want. Modelling boards here where I live in Thailand have become so popular it has become nearly impossible to sell an amp here. I get it...on the surface you can get tones for nearly any amp available, they are super portable and a lot cheaper and easier to lug around than owning an amp. Many guys here in Thailand don't have the money to buy a decent amp. Guys here can do 3-4 gigs a night running from pub to pub just plugging into the house PA so they are perfect for that. Modelling amps I have tried sound initially good to me, but get old fairly quick

I have a really old Boss GT-3/5 multi effects unit which has the analogue OD/DS and has a ton more control than the modern ones do, particularly for arranging and finding your patches quickly. It is built like a tank and is like having a box of old Boss stomp boxes all in one unit. There is no noise or hum from it. OD/DS heavy rock patches on these new modellers seem to have huge amounts of cycle hum, even see it on many of the demo vids on you tube. With my old Boss I can have every effect available turned on and tweaked to the nth degree. For example the Mooer in a patch the wah pedal and compressor effects are in the same block and you can choose only one or the other. For a clean player compressor is a must on every patch, for me anyway. And the modern compressors don't seem to actually compress the sound like they used to either.

These are all my own opinions of course and I am sure there are people who love the modern boards. I have tried to like the newer stuff relentlessly and always expect the newer stuff will be an upgrade on what I have but I continue to be disappointed and can only see these things as toys, or at best a home recording tool in this new you tube recording / like / subscribe generation.

5 years on after these things became popular are people convinced they are the way forward or do some people feel like me?

 

[middy]

Yes.
Try a Tonex profiler. And use a good FRFR monitor. I wouldn't go any cheaper than a QSC CP8.

 

[TheCheapGuitarist]

In my case, my Marshall CODE 100W head direct to P.A., and later my Zoom G5n direct to P.A. (with a 12" FRFR cab for a monitor) have been my tube amp replacement. I started using the FRFR speaker because lately I'm noticing that stage wedge-monitors SUCK for guitar! They seem to be getting smaller and smaller, and sounding crappier and crappier. That FRFR gives me all the "punch" I need and what I've come to expect from a guitar amp on stage.

I've had compliments on my tone, except from a drummer friend who said he "prefers the warmth of a tube amp"... take that for what it's worth....

Do I miss the days of cranking my 50W Marshall half-stack on stage? YES. Is that type of thing practical in the gigs I'm playing lately? NOPE. I do wish stage wedges weren't such crap these days.

 

[Frodebro]

Digital has not “replaced” my tube amps as far as what gear I have and what I like to play through, but it is far more practical for most situations I find myself in.

For noodling at home (when I have the house to myself) I currently rotate between a Mesa Fillmore combo, a Marshall Origin 20 combo, and a PRS HDRX20. If I don’t have the run of the place (far more common) it’s a Fractal Axe-FX3 into either studio monitors or headphones.

I have a Fractal FM9T that is pretty much all I use with my band.

 

[black_doug]

At a gig in a bar most of the time nobody will know or care if it’s a valve amp, or what you’re playing through. I’ve been fooled.

 

[Fluddman]

No and Yes

 

[codamedia]

@Craig Williams ... In that entire OP you don't tell us what you used to monitor the modelers you have tried. That is a critical piece of the puzzle when attempting to make a switch. Cut corners at that position and no, the modeler cannot keep up. Make a wise choice at that position, a world of possibilities opens up.

I dabbled with direct options since the early 90's, but in 2018 the transition was complete when I bought my Helix. I do close to 100 shows a year, and never regret the move.

 

[Blrfl]

(Quotes are slightly out of order)

Been through a few of these units....from Nux MG-30, MG-300, Pod Go and now a Mooer MG-150. Admittedly none of these the top of the tree ... I continue to be disappointed and can only see these things as toys...

Not bagging on you here, but most of what you've bought are the toys. Two are sub-$200, one is $300 and the other is $375.

The Pod Go is the surprise on the list because that runs the same models as the Helix (just fewer of them with less flexibility) and I cook up a lot of tasty stuff on mine (Helix). That said, I've also done up good patches for my $120 Pocket GT, so price isn't everything. But that said, it takes a lot more work to get something good out of the GT than my Helix, so corners are being cut somewhere.

I have really tried to like these new modelling effects units but they just don't seemed to be designed to use in the old fashioned way aka effects pedals plugged into the front of a combo. I know you can turn the amps and cabs off but even with EVERYTHING turned off they seem to color or mess up the sound of your amp...

Give me a fistful of old-fashioned pedals and I can make them color or mess up the sound of any amp you want. My Ampero and Helix work just fine as effects-only platforms. I don't use them that way much because the amp models are really good and I spend a lot of time with cans on my head.

I will say that it seems like a lot of people go into digital with the expectation that it's going to be drop-in replacement for their analog stuff that's going to behave exactly the same way. My experience has been that it doesn't, largely because of things surrounding signal levels and gain where analog lets you get away with murder and digital will spite you for getting it wrong.

OD/DS heavy rock patches on these new modellers seem to have huge amounts of cycle hum ...

Of course, because they're loaded to the gills with gain and rarely have a noise gate configured up front to cut back on that. The high-gain factory patches on my Helix, Ampero and Pocket GT are all that way. I've said this in other threads on this topic, but what comes from the factory probably sounded great with the same gear used to develop them, but neither of us has that gear. Use them as starting points or as a source for ideas.

 

[Axis29]

I‘ve been trying to find a digital/solid state solution for decades. Wish I was kidding. I‘ve tried stuff from a number of brands. I never got the feel. It was always wrong.

Back in November, a bud sent me his ToneX Pedal.

I haven’t turned on any of my amps since. I have three tweed amps, a brownface and a Marshall. I use headphones or a powered speaker (JBL Eon 610) from my PA set up.

I don’t have any experience with the NUX, never liked the POD stuff…. But, honestly, the current crop of bigger name processors are pretty darn good! I have actually contemplated selling a few amps….

To answer your question, yes, the modern digital/solid state solutons can easily be a replacement for a great tube amp.

I think it’s a little unfair of us, the more I think about it…. I mean I am looking to replace five amps, each worth more than a thousand dollars with one little box…. I did! I did it for under $500, in fact.

 

[2L man]

I have Vox Valvenergy Mystic Edge pedal which has some kind "cab simulating" output and when connect to D-class amplifier/guitar speaker the sound is better than I as a hobbyist tube amp builder am willing to confess to myself. It is not cheap pedal but not very expensive either and my favorite OD pedal with tube amps too. Now Vox has published 2nd generation Valvenergy pedals which all four sound good in few short reviews.

 

[Killing Floor]

They’re an alternative to a good amp. Not a replacement. In the same way tapioca powder is an alternative to eggs as a binder in baked goods. I couldn’t make my son pancakes without it. But I’m not going to tell you it’s exactly the same.

 

[RolandG]

5 years on after these things became popular are people convinced they are the way forward or do some people feel like me?

Modellers are the way forward for most uses. The reasons depend on what your use is. There is a big cost saving and a convenience factor if you tour. I’ve seen instances where someone doing a one-off fly gig has borrowed a Fractal device from a local fan, and flown in with just a memory stick. At the pub and club level, which is where I play, I have a range of different amp models, and a range of studio quality effects, all of which I can switch between with one pedal tap.

It is easy to focus just on the amp sounds. I’m not going to argue that modellers are better than valve amps, although they are more reliable. With a modeller there are additional features. For example, I use midi messages to trigger our lighting rig.

 

[chris m.]

In my experience thus far, you have to build patches yourself on a modeler if you want it to sound good, paying particular attention to EQ. High cut to get rid of fizz plus additional tone shaping.

I had a POD Go and it sounded OK, but kind of spongy/artificial, even after loading in some fancy IRs. I got a Boss GX-100 and am very happy with its AIRD amps. They sound punchier, less lag, more like a "real amp".

I'm doing a gig tonight where six of us have to crowd on a miniscule stage. I'll be going straight from the GX100 into the PA. Normally I run it into the effects return of my BluGuitar Amp1 which powers a 2x12 guitar cabinet. I normally then mike the cabinet to the PA. I built two sets of patches-- one set for going direct, another set with cab sims turned off to go into the effects return of a guitar amp.

The experience of a modeler sounding thin and crappy out of the box is common, I think. It has created an opportunity for lots of dudes (they're all dudes, pretty much) to post how-to videos that show the user how to create patches that actually sound good.

 

[BlueShadows]

For me, a modeler is where it's at when I need to dial in a lot of diversity in tones very quickly. If I'm just doing overdriven blues or another pretty straightforward tone, it's pedals and tubes. So not a replacement, a supplement.

 

[The Angle]

I have really tried to like these new modelling effects units but they just don't seemed to be designed to use in the old fashioned way aka effects pedals plugged into the front of a combo.

I think you hit the nail square on the head right there. They are new tools, different from the old tools, and they're not meant to be used the way the old tools were. To get the best out of digital gear requires using it as it was meant to be used. And there's no one-right-way for that. Just as what works best for one pedal may not work best for another, the best way to use one digital tool might not be best for another.

 

[Frodebro]

At a gig in a bar most of the time nobody will know or care if it’s a valve amp, or what you’re playing through. I’ve been fooled.

Just for the sake of keeping it real, nobody in the audience will know or care if you’re wearing boxers, briefs, or a thong, either...

But you’ll know, and choosing the wrong option can have a negative impact on your enjoyment of the evening.

 

[black_doug]

Just for the sake of keeping it real, nobody in the audience will know or care if you’re wearing boxers, briefs, or a thong, either...

But you’ll know, and choosing the wrong option can have a negative impact on your enjoyment of the evening.

Agreed. And that’s why I still prefer my Marshall SC20 combo on stage.

 

[Frodebro]

Agreed. And that’s why I still prefer my Marshall SC20 combo on stage.

I’ve had my eye on those studio amps for a while now. Just can’t decide which one would suit me best, and for what they cost in America it’s not a “just get all of them” situation. Leaning toward the JTM.

 

[Nick Fanis]

Of course not.

 

[24 track]

I have 3 modeling devices 2 X ART SGX 2000, a Behringer Vamp Bass, and a POD Pro and although I can get almost any sound I want out of theses devices it does not match the sounds of My guitar into an amp , I'M not a big pedal fan , never was , but a real tube pre-amp like the BK Butler or Chandler Tube Driver in front of a real tube amp is a thing of beauty , however sounds like wombat poop into a digital emulator or straight into a mixer . each have pros and cons.