Middle position/out of phase sound

[jmann]

Hi to everyone.
I am new to this board although I have been lurking for some time now. I have just purchased my first tele
2 weeks ago after many years of avoiding/ignoring teles.
My tele is a 2000 AmSer in natural ash finish(gorgeous
btw) with a Gibson P90 installed in the neck position by the previous owner.
After determining that the thin, hollow, honky, nasally,
transistor radio sounding (did I miss a descriptor? ) middle position is a result of my pups being out of phase, I have a question or 2 about this pos./sound. Does anyone like this o.o.p. sound and are there recordings/guitarists past or present that have used this sound?
I was at first put off by the sound but have come to slowly appreciate its charms and quirks. It especially thins out in the higher register playing. What should I expect if I were to put the pups in phase?
I apologize if these questions have already been answered but I have searched and read about o.o.p. pups on this board til my eyes became out of phase and could not find adequate answers.
One final question. My tone control seems to have a small detent at the end of its rotation. Is that the delta tone thingy and what exactly is it suppose to do??
You guys have been a great help so far and played a large part in my tele purchase.

Thanx,
Jim

 

[lenny]

i think you will be better off with the traditional "in phase" sound.
this involves switching the hot and ground on one pickup. someone please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think you want to switch the hot and ground on the p-90. i dont know if the ground is connected to a plate (like the tele bridge). if not i think you just need to unslder em and revers. if it does, you need to carefully switch the plate to connect to the new ground.
yea, that sounds like the "delta tone" pot. the detente at the 10 position allows you to bypass the tone pot entirely, giving you an edgier more "present" sound. so from zero to 9, it works like a regular 250k tone pot, and the detente = esquire style wide open rock and roll !

 

[editorjuno]

Making use of "out-of-phase" pickups

[AA meeting mode on]
Hi, Jim!
[AA meeting mode off]

You can make that "out-of-phase" tone much more usable by putting a .01 mfd capacitor in series between the selector switch lugs where a wire jumper is currently soldered. That will allow the full low end of the bridge pickup to come through in the middle position while maintaining the partial phase cancellation at the higher frequencies that gives you the "charms and quirks" you're enjoying.

Find the switch lug where the "hot" lead (the other one should be grounded, most likely to the back of the volume pot) from the neck pickup is soldered -- there should also be a piece of wire that connects that lug to the adjacent lug; replace that little piece of wire with the capacitor. This mod is a little more difficult with a traditional Tele neck pickup because of the way its metal cover is grounded, but it should be a slam dunk with that P-90 -- just get the capacitor soldered to the right lugs and you're all done!

If you want both a "half out-of-phase" position and a (more or less, because of that P-90) "normal" Tele middle position sound, you'll need a Strat switch and a diagram which I'll gladly provide if you e-mail me at <editor@juno.com>. "Half out-of-phase" is one my favorite Tele sounds and I'm glad to help anyone who wants to make it happen!

 

[jmann]

Thanks ej and lenny for your suggestions. I think I will sit on this set up for awhile before experimenting. Ej , your half out of phase switching sounds interesting.
Anyone else like this o.o.p. position or know of some recordings of it???

Thanx,
Jim

 

[TG]

I think that James Burton's tele in the '50s had an out of phase middle sound. Get a copy of Ricky Nelson's 'Travelling Man' and listen to the solo.

 

[Don Miller]

Clarence White-Sweetheart of the Rodeo-Blue Canadian Rockies...out of phase tele sound..

 

[maestrovert]

out of phase tones

ahem ! welcome, you're now a "Telewhacker !
Please please please don't forget the great underrated and often overlooked Jimmy Messina....some of the earlier Loggins and Messina stuff has that "out of phase" Tele tone...

 

[KokoTele]

Seems like half of everything recorded on a Strat uses that out of phase sound with positions 2 and 4.

 

[editorjuno]

Seems like half of everything recorded on a Strat uses that out of phase sound with positions 2 and 4.

That's a somewhat similar-sounding effect, but not quite the same as wiring two pickups so they're opposite in polarity to each other with (or without) a capacitor to prevent excessive loss of bass. I have one of each -- a three-pickup Nashville Tele and one with two pickups and a "half out-of-phase" switch position -- so I can testify to that first-hand.

 

[JCollins]

The P90 does have its ground lead connected to a base plate, so simply switching the hot and ground of this pickup will not work. However, the fix is not that complicated. A P90 is constructed in a similar manner to a humbucker, in that the pole pieces are not magnets. Instead, a P90 is built with two bar magnets, on magnet on either side of the row of pole pieces. All you have to do is flip each of those magnets, so that the long end that was formerly in contact with the row of pole pieces is now facing away from the row of pole pieces. Leave the connections in the same place, and the pickup will be in phase with the bridge pickup.

 

[OutlawSteph]

I was thinking of putting a Duncan Jerry Donahue model in my MIM Tele Custom. So, if I do that, it's going to be out of phase with the stock humbucker. Should I have the humbucker put in phase with the Duncan or leave it out of phase? Some tone pros and cons would be appreciated!

 

[Mik]

I've been playing Teles with tele bridge pickups and P90s for a long time. So it's been a long time since I wired them up.

So I'm short on details but:

It's easy to match the polarity (to get them "in phase"). You just need to wire the pickups, pots and switch correctly. The Gibson P90 is the reverse of the Fender Tele bridge pick up (the Am. Vintage (52Reissue). As I recall I just wired up the Gibson the reverse of the Fender. No need to open up the P90 and reverse the bar magnets. I may also have switched a a short ground wire on the Fender pickup, I don't remember... Maybe Fuzzy or other Telexpert can jump in here to elaborate.

Anyway, mismatched polarity was just unusable: too thin and very weak output. Some trial and error, I got em matched. With polarity of the 2 pickups matched, the sound of them together has little loss of volume, has full sound and is a little "quacky" and "Tbone".

I highly recommend and I encourage you to matched the pickups' polarity.

EDIT: Reflecting...I think all you need to do is reverse the P90 wire leads. Don't reverse the Fender pickup wire leads, if the Fender wire leads are reversed then that short jumper ground wire on the pick up must also be reversed.

Mik

 

[editorjuno]

I was thinking of putting a Duncan Jerry Donahue model in my MIM Tele Custom. So, if I do that, it's going to be out of phase with the stock humbucker. Should I have the humbucker put in phase with the Duncan or leave it out of phase? Some tone pros and cons would be appreciated!

Parallel and polarities opposite (so-called "out-of-phase") is weak and unusable imo compared to either pickup alone. Inserting a capacitor in series with the hot lead of one of the pickups remedies that weakness and retains the "out-of-phase" effect. With a standard Tele switch you can wire in the capacitor so it affects only the middle position.

The typical "normal" Tele wiring uses matched pickup polarities (so-called "in-phase") and has a much less pronounced partial cancellation effect. I find myself using the former ("half out of phase") more often for leads and find the latter ("normal"/"in-phase") more suitable for rhythm, but having both requires a different (e.g. Strat-style) switch -- and of course ymmv when it comes to preferences.

 

[woodman]

another out-of-phase approach

i had my Warmoth Frankenstein Tele routed for a middle pickup, and popped a Strat pickup there wired out-of-phase. it's not connected to the selector switch -- it goes thru its own vol control on the way to the output jack (yeah, ya gotta drill another hole in the control plate). but with this configuration, you can dial in as much out-of-phase sound as you want -- from just a taste for a little extra twang to full-bore for some real T-Bone "oink"!

 

[OutlawSteph]

Inserting a capacitor in series with the hot lead of one of the pickups remedies that weakness and retains the "out-of-phase" effect.

Thanks. I'll pass that on to the guy I'll have install the new pup and hopefully he'll know what to do!

BTW, woodman, that's a really cool idea for 3-pup configurations.

 

[Mur]

Just to reiterate here ..both James Burton and Clarence White recorded tunes using the out-of-phase position (Burton, early 60's, and Clarence, later 60's). Also, the '54 Tele that Clarence used on the Byrds "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" album was shortly after traded to Bob Warford, who went on to use it with Emmylou Harris, Linda Ronstadt, Everly Brothers, and Roy Orbison. (did I forget to mention Tony Bennett?)! ..Warford still has that Tele (w/secret mini-toggle phase-switch intact) and performs and records with it today, and is in top-form as well. Whats interesting is, in the early 70's, Burton was playing for Emmylou when he got the call to play for Elvis (guess he couldn't refuse that one). So, to replace Burton, who'd they call? ..Bob Warford. Tall order to fill, but a great choice for the position I'd say. BTW, some of Warford's best work can be heard on Linda Ronstadt's multi-platinum seller "Heart Like A Wheel", which I think is the best album recorded in the 70's (pull it out, listen, and compare ..it's excellent). Besides the interesting acoustic tracks (Warford was a pioneer of hi-strung tunings), make sure to give a close listen to his unique and highly musical bender-work on "Dark End of the Street", and "Willin".


Click here --> http://users.adelphia.net/~bfriend97/hotband.jpg
Shown left to right: Emmylou, John Ware, James Burton, and Bob Warford.

 

[editorjuno]

Inserting a capacitor in series with the hot lead of one of the pickups remedies that weakness and retains the "out-of-phase" effect.

Thanks. I'll pass that on to the guy I'll have install the new pup and hopefully he'll know what to do!

{snipped}

Just remember the value of .01 mfd -- anything between .0047 and .022 mfd. will do, but I've found .01 mfd to be ideal.

 

[bluemud]

with a fender HB and duncan sc in the bridge,the mid position will be out of phase,but in series.i'm gonna try the cap trick...half-o.o.p. sounds cool

 

[jmann]

o.o.p. users

Hey TG , Don .. Almost ashamed to admit that I never heard Burton or White play(that I am aware of anyway).
I will certainly check them out sometime.
Jimmy Messina I am sure I have heard but not with a Tele ear...
A couple of good suggestions offered on how to make my P90 in phase with my bridge...appreciated !!
One more thing: are there guys on this board that like and use the o.o.p. position as part of their sonic arsenal??

Thanx,
Jim

 

[olewichita]

burton...

already used the outta phase sound in the 50s... red hot with bob luman comes to mind... i asked him and he said it was just how his 53 had come straight out of the rack... tj